VW Passat 1.8t 2001 10k PYB 5-30 spun bearing
- Thread starter zanzabar
- Start date
- Status
I have a theory: It wore out. It does have 174K you know. Aren't you drawing a lot of conclusions from a few Pennzoil oil changes?
All we seem to know for sure is that it had some serious sludge problem before 120K and then for the last 40K it had Pennzoil. A more likely scenario is that it was at least somewhat neglected and damaged at 120K and gave up the ghost 50K later.
All we seem to know for sure is that it had some serious sludge problem before 120K and then for the last 40K it had Pennzoil. A more likely scenario is that it was at least somewhat neglected and damaged at 120K and gave up the ghost 50K later.
Bearing pics:
Top is the cam cap (above the camshaft), the bottom journal looks slightly less bad. I'm pulling the head today and bringing to the metal shop hoping they can replace the cap and hone the bottom journal and the camshaft and make it work.
Top is the cam cap (above the camshaft), the bottom journal looks slightly less bad. I'm pulling the head today and bringing to the metal shop hoping they can replace the cap and hone the bottom journal and the camshaft and make it work.
Thanks for posting the pics!
Originally Posted By: jimbrewer
I have a theory: It wore out. It does have 174K you know. Aren't you drawing a lot of conclusions from a few Pennzoil oil changes?
All we seem to know for sure is that it had some serious sludge problem before 120K and then for the last 40K it had Pennzoil. A more likely scenario is that it was at least somewhat neglected and damaged at 120K and gave up the ghost 50K later.
"It wore out" frankly is the old way of thinking about cars. And I'm not blaming the Pennzoil for anything, it's just the wrong oil and led to starvation at the top end and so far it appears the damage is minimal. I'll find out about the valves when I get the head off. I'm still thinking that a good machine shop can come up with a repair for the relatively minimal damage on that one bearing and replace the cap and clean out the oil feed passages and this thing should go another 50-100k miles.
The thing that's interesting about this UOA is that there doesn't appear to be a catastrophic amount of wear metal and probably nobody would have predicted that impending doom to the top end was about to be seen. Well, maybe not nobody, but I didn't think this UOA was all that bad really.
I have a theory: It wore out. It does have 174K you know. Aren't you drawing a lot of conclusions from a few Pennzoil oil changes?
All we seem to know for sure is that it had some serious sludge problem before 120K and then for the last 40K it had Pennzoil. A more likely scenario is that it was at least somewhat neglected and damaged at 120K and gave up the ghost 50K later.
"It wore out" frankly is the old way of thinking about cars. And I'm not blaming the Pennzoil for anything, it's just the wrong oil and led to starvation at the top end and so far it appears the damage is minimal. I'll find out about the valves when I get the head off. I'm still thinking that a good machine shop can come up with a repair for the relatively minimal damage on that one bearing and replace the cap and clean out the oil feed passages and this thing should go another 50-100k miles.
The thing that's interesting about this UOA is that there doesn't appear to be a catastrophic amount of wear metal and probably nobody would have predicted that impending doom to the top end was about to be seen. Well, maybe not nobody, but I didn't think this UOA was all that bad really.
Originally Posted By: zanzabar
Originally Posted By: jimbrewer
I have a theory: It wore out. It does have 174K you know. Aren't you drawing a lot of conclusions from a few Pennzoil oil changes?
All we seem to know for sure is that it had some serious sludge problem before 120K and then for the last 40K it had Pennzoil. A more likely scenario is that it was at least somewhat neglected and damaged at 120K and gave up the ghost 50K later.
"It wore out" frankly is the old way of thinking about cars. And I'm not blaming the Pennzoil for anything, it's just the wrong oil and led to starvation at the top end and so far it appears the damage is minimal. I'll find out about the valves when I get the head off. I'm still thinking that a good machine shop can come up with a repair for the relatively minimal damage on that one bearing and replace the cap and clean out the oil feed passages and this thing should go another 50-100k miles.
The thing that's interesting about this UOA is that there doesn't appear to be a catastrophic amount of wear metal and probably nobody would have predicted that impending doom to the top end was about to be seen. Well, maybe not nobody, but I didn't think this UOA was all that bad really.
No huge disagreement, (except motors do wear out) but I'd say its even money that the few Pennzoil changes at the end are the best and most consistent maintenance that this forlorn car received.
All we know for sure is that:
1. It was neglected enough to require a major sludge related repair at 120K.
2. It received a series of 10K Pennzoil oil changes over 50K.
3. It failed with a good UOA.
Originally Posted By: jimbrewer
I have a theory: It wore out. It does have 174K you know. Aren't you drawing a lot of conclusions from a few Pennzoil oil changes?
All we seem to know for sure is that it had some serious sludge problem before 120K and then for the last 40K it had Pennzoil. A more likely scenario is that it was at least somewhat neglected and damaged at 120K and gave up the ghost 50K later.
"It wore out" frankly is the old way of thinking about cars. And I'm not blaming the Pennzoil for anything, it's just the wrong oil and led to starvation at the top end and so far it appears the damage is minimal. I'll find out about the valves when I get the head off. I'm still thinking that a good machine shop can come up with a repair for the relatively minimal damage on that one bearing and replace the cap and clean out the oil feed passages and this thing should go another 50-100k miles.
The thing that's interesting about this UOA is that there doesn't appear to be a catastrophic amount of wear metal and probably nobody would have predicted that impending doom to the top end was about to be seen. Well, maybe not nobody, but I didn't think this UOA was all that bad really.
No huge disagreement, (except motors do wear out) but I'd say its even money that the few Pennzoil changes at the end are the best and most consistent maintenance that this forlorn car received.
All we know for sure is that:
1. It was neglected enough to require a major sludge related repair at 120K.
2. It received a series of 10K Pennzoil oil changes over 50K.
3. It failed with a good UOA.
Final diagnosis on this is that the oil pump failed gloriously sending metal chunks all over the engine. That plus a large amount of oil coke blocking the pickup tube ended up reducing the oil pressure and getting a metal flack stuck in the exhaust cam journal siezing it and throwing off the timing.
New oil pump and pickup tube installed, crank bearings inspected, all seems fine now. Seems to produce and hold good oil pressure and runs well with no odd noises or knocking.
New oil pump and pickup tube installed, crank bearings inspected, all seems fine now. Seems to produce and hold good oil pressure and runs well with no odd noises or knocking.
Imma gonna pile on the owner of the poor beast: even good dino in a turbo is the wrong application. Even cheap synthetic on short (ie. less than 4K miles) is better than this mess and MUCH LESS EXPENSIVE!
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Rand
That engine is notorious for running hot and needing good oil.
Something like 5w40 syn would "PROBABLY" be ok for 10k miles
pyb 5w30 for 10k miles... a bunch of times.. uh no.
not only no WHAT the heck were they thinking no.
That oil does NOT meet the spec vw specifies for that engine.
Agreed, the Germans do 10K mile OCI's or more on this engine, BUT they use an HC or G4 synthetic and most of them use a 5/40. 5/30 is more popular with newer cars.
That engine is notorious for running hot and needing good oil.
Something like 5w40 syn would "PROBABLY" be ok for 10k miles
pyb 5w30 for 10k miles... a bunch of times.. uh no.
not only no WHAT the heck were they thinking no.
That oil does NOT meet the spec vw specifies for that engine.
Agreed, the Germans do 10K mile OCI's or more on this engine, BUT they use an HC or G4 synthetic and most of them use a 5/40. 5/30 is more popular with newer cars.
It's very possible that the engine was damaged by the previous sludge incident, also ignoring a low oil pressure warning is fairly suicidal, because if it had been inspected after the first OP warning the partly blocked oil pump screen would have been spotted.
Originally Posted By: edhackett
UOA only shows wear that is generated largely by "normal" wear, which generate particles less than 5 microns. Abnormal wear or catastrophic failure doesn't always show in a standard UOA.
You could grind up an entire engine into particles >5 microns and dump that in the oil pan. A UOA would come back looking just fine using ICP analysis techniques.
Ed
I'd say Ed is right on the money here.
I've drained the oil a couple more times since these pics were taken and am still seeing a few, though much less each time, chunks of black crud (coke) and metal shavings. I'm guessing this junk is spread around all over the place inside the engine. Once I stop seeing all the bits in the oil I drain out I'll drive it for a few hundred miles and refill with Rotella T6.
UOA only shows wear that is generated largely by "normal" wear, which generate particles less than 5 microns. Abnormal wear or catastrophic failure doesn't always show in a standard UOA.
You could grind up an entire engine into particles >5 microns and dump that in the oil pan. A UOA would come back looking just fine using ICP analysis techniques.
Ed
I'd say Ed is right on the money here.
I've drained the oil a couple more times since these pics were taken and am still seeing a few, though much less each time, chunks of black crud (coke) and metal shavings. I'm guessing this junk is spread around all over the place inside the engine. Once I stop seeing all the bits in the oil I drain out I'll drive it for a few hundred miles and refill with Rotella T6.
I have had to throw motors like that in the garbage with damage to head and crank like that even after it got rebuilt by someone else. Hopefully you didn't throw good money away. That Turbo will be damaged as well so be careful. Wish you the best. Oil pressures will seem right until a long drive and pressure would drop to less than specs usually 5 psi or less at idle since the clearances on cam seat (Aluminum Housing-Bearing) is to large.
Update: the car has run fine for 500 miles now. There is plenty of power, it passed smog inspection easily, and it maintains good oil pressure...most of the time. I have seen some lingering low oil pressure issues: at hot idle it holds just under 1bar, but the pressure goes up at least 1bar per 1000 rpms (e.g. 2bar at 2000, 3bar at 3000...and so on). I have experienced the low oil pressure warning exactly once after a long highway run at high rpms ("Italian tuneup"), and it's on a mix of 5w30 and 15w40 diesel oil. In the summertime I may move to 5w40 diesel oil and if the low pressure warnings continue experiment with an Xw50 oil or some thickener product (really hoping I won't have to do that though).
I actually ended up selling my really nice 2002 sedan and am using this for a daily driver now. If it lasts 10k miles or more I'll be satisfied, but would be nice to get at least 25k out of it.
I actually ended up selling my really nice 2002 sedan and am using this for a daily driver now. If it lasts 10k miles or more I'll be satisfied, but would be nice to get at least 25k out of it.
Turbo + Dino + long OCI is never good.
Turbos should always be ran with synthetic in my opinion.
Turbos should always be ran with synthetic in my opinion.
- Status
