Nano-based lubricant from Millers Oils

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: 67King
Originally Posted By: skyship
Where can you buy this new oil at present??


The street oils, at present, are only available through us (www.performanceracingoils.com). You can also try Performance Oil Store, as we have a close relationship with Barry and he is carrying some of our non-NT street oils. For the race oils, you can again buy through us directly, or from Paragon Products, Apex Performance, LN Engineering, Essex Parts, Gabriel Maintenance Ltd (in Canada).

Outside of North America, you can look up on the Global Network, near the top on the right, there's a pull down tab: www.millersoils.co.uk.

Also, the dyno curves include a mix of several different brands. The RSR, Skoda, and MR2 were Millers non-NT and Millers NT. All the others were competitors and excpet for the Ducati, I've given enough info in the thread where you can find out.


I'm impressed because your oil finder had the correct result for my old Volvo diesel, so I will have a look around E bay to see if I can buy 5 ltrs of Millers full synthetic 5/40. Blackstones do free VOA's for me if I find an oil that is not on their data base or already published and then I will list the UOA results in the diesel section for comparison with LM Synthoil High Tech 5/40.
Halfrauds has the worst site as they listed a 15/40! How the heck they thought I would start on a cold day in winter I have no idea, I presume they planned on selling a new battery with each oil can.

 

[Tempest]

This is a pretty interesting read:
http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF/Racetech_mag_article_Tiny_Tech_Big_Breakthrough.pdf

 

[67King]

Just stumbled across another piece of info that may be interesting to some folks here. This is an SRV Oscillating test, ASTM D5707. Originally designed to test greases, one of the additive suppliers Millers uses tested it on the CRX 75W90 NT gear oil. This is before the NT and after NT is added. Noteworthy points. When the lubricant fails, the red line (coefficient of friction) and blue line (stroke) kind of go haywire. The green line is the load, which is stepped up in 100N increments. Before is first, after is second. The non-NT gear oil, which is a diester fully synthetic, failed at 1100N. The NT gear oil (also a diester fully synthetic), failed at 1600N. The NT is also more "stable" for lack of a better term, as you can see the CF varies much less with the NT - likely the system is going through the regimes of lubrication during the stroke, and as the NT provides its primary benefit in boundary lubrication, the CF doesn't spike as the wedge is lost at the edges.

 

[wlyszkow]

Hello,
If I am correct Millers NT oils contain mainly nano boron additive like below 10W-50 CFS NT. In gear oil there are about 800ppm Boron (e.g. 75W-140 NT).
http://imageshack.us/a/img442/2153/voamillers10w50cfsnt.jpg
I was using CFS NT 0W-30 in my Toyota 1.8 and it dropped to SAE 20 after 3200km with quite high TAN kept increasing. It wasn't raced - family car 50/50 hwy/city.
0W-30 seems to contain a mix of high Moly + Tungsten, Tungsten read 872 ppm (so probably nano WS2 powder).
See my 0W-30 CFS NT UOA after 3200km and 6250km - the same oil with 0,1L added
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2623/avensisna0w30.png

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: wlyszkow
Hello,
If I am correct Millers NT oils contain mainly nano boron additive like below 10W-50 CFS NT. In gear oil there are about 800ppm Boron (e.g. 75W-140 NT).
http://imageshack.us/a/img442/2153/voamillers10w50cfsnt.jpg
I was using CFS NT 0W-30 in my Toyota 1.8 and it dropped to SAE 20 after 3200km with quite high TAN kept increasing. It wasn't raced - family car 50/50 hwy/city.
0W-30 seems to contain a mix of high Moly + Tungsten, Tungsten read 872 ppm (so probably nano WS2 powder).
See my 0W-30 CFS NT UOA after 3200km and 6250km - the same oil with 0,1L added
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2623/avensisna0w30.png



There is no real effect visible as far as I can see and because this additive contains so much Moly, even if there was it would be hard to know if the nano particles or Moly were responsible.
If you are testing additives you need to do a much longer OCI because the accuracy of the lab readings is not good enough for figures much below 5ppm to be of statistical significance. You also have to consider the effects of seasonal changes from additional cold start wear on Fe in particular.

 

[67King]

I'll try to address this when I have a bit more time, but the 10W50 does not appear to be MIllers based on some grossly different numbers - like orders of magnitude different. 0W30 is perplexing for a very different reason.

 

[wlyszkow]

0W-30 CFS NT as MillersOils UK says is:
"Formulated for use in qualifying or shorter duration events where the engine is designed to take advantage of this type of low drag/low friction lubricant. Intended for competition use only not recommended for road use."

So, I wasn't expecting it to stay in great condition very long. It was very nice and quiet about 2000km.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: 67King
I'll try to address this when I have a bit more time, but the 10W50 does not appear to be MIllers based on some grossly different numbers - like orders of magnitude different. 0W30 is perplexing for a very different reason.


So, IS the 0W-30 Nanodrive a purely 'racing ONLY', very short OCI oil, or can it also be used on the street, for a decent OCI (as you have claimed in past posts)??

 

[67King]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: 67King
I'll try to address this when I have a bit more time, but the 10W50 does not appear to be MIllers based on some grossly different numbers - like orders of magnitude different. 0W30 is perplexing for a very different reason.


So, IS the 0W-30 Nanodrive a purely 'racing ONLY', very short OCI oil, or can it also be used on the street, for a decent OCI (as you have claimed in past posts)??

Yes, it can. Millers is in the process of changing the spec sheets due to the ambiguous (at best) semantics. The 0W20 was changed, the 0W30 was missed, but should be changed soon. Link to the 0W20 on the parent (Millers) site with revision: CFS 0W20 NT Second paragraph under application - "Suitable for operating at 125°C with peak temperatures up to 150°C. Intended for racing and track use. Can be used for road cars where a fully synthetic 0w20 is recommended by the original manufacturer."

Here's a cut and paste of an e-mail I got in response to some info I put in our FAQ:

"Please see attached the latest versions of our Product Data Sheets for CFS 0w20 and CFS 0w20 NT which do indicate that they are suitable for road use where fully synthetic oils of this viscosity are recommended by the original manufacturer.

For some reason the CFS 0w30 NT data sheet, copy also attached, still states that it is not recommended for road use but I have asked for this to be changed and should be able to circulate a modified version in the next few days."

Again, there are some perplexing things about the report, and they are not technical. Responding at this point would be a bit inappropriate.

 

[supercity]

I would not worry abut the 0w30 warning. I have noticed Millers is a bit of a "thicker is better" manufacturer. Similar to Penrite, they recommend one grade thicker when track racing etc

 

[67King]

Originally Posted By: supercity
I would not worry abut the 0w30 warning. I have noticed Millers is a bit of a "thicker is better" manufacturer. Similar to Penrite, they recommend one grade thicker when track racing etc


Yes, Millers is a very conservative company by nature, which in all likelihood led to the verbiage on the TDS's. The recommendations are carried over from the non-NT line of CFS oils. The results we are seeing with NT are leading us to discuss doing the opposite. We are planning on comparing lower viscosity NT oils with more typical synthetics to see how they stack up. On the race oils, wear has been reduced by as much as 80%. If we can get equivalent wear with a thinner oil, thne it will be advantageous to do so.

Curious, we've got some friends (Porshce racers from a different business interest) in Australia, and Millers isn't available down that way. Do you have any prior knowledge of them? We've had a few discussions with Millers to see about finding a distributor down there.

 

[supercity]

Millers is an unknown brand here. I only know of Millers because I visit UK based websites for info on the european cars I like that are not sold here.

 

[wlyszkow]

Originally Posted By: 67King

"Suitable for operating at 125°C with peak temperatures up to 150°C. Intended for racing and track use. Can be used for road cars where a fully synthetic 0w20 is recommended by the original manufacturer."

Are you sure that it is about longlife use and not only about viscosity? How long would you recommend to use an oil with TAN > 6 after 4000 miles of daily use? Would you recommend CFS NT oil with so high phosphorus level (and probably sulfur / SAPS) in place of API SN / GF-5 oil for daily use in a MY2006+ road car?

Is this true that CFS NT oils are not recommended for winter use? Could it be related to their higher COF when oil temperature is below 70*C ? Could it be correct only to boron fullerenes based ones or to nano WS2 ones as well?

Thank you..

 

[wlyszkow]

Originally Posted By: 67King
the 10W50 does not appear to be MIllers based on some grossly different numbers - like orders of magnitude different.

It was - virgin one straight from a Millers 10W-50 CFS NT bottle, at least the one sold in Poland.

 

[wlyszkow]

67King, you probably missed this nice press information:
http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF/KAPS_Transmissions_and_Millers_Oil.pdf
Is that high level of Boron (871ppm) related to the nanotechnology additive?

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: wlyszkow
67King, you probably missed this nice press information:
http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF/KAPS_Transmissions_and_Millers_Oil.pdf
Is that high level of Boron (871ppm) related to the nanotechnology additive?


Chevron also uses an inorganic borate additive in it's 80W-90 Delo ESI gear oil, albeit not of the nanotechnology grade/type.

 

[67King]

Wojtek - I know from e-mails forwarded, and sent directly to me from [email protected] that you are a dealer of Amsoil and other lubricants, and I know that my counterpart in Poland has had a history in dealing with you. Perhaps your status as an Amsoil dealer is known to folks here from other threads, I don't know. But I think the members of the forum, at the very least those reading this thread, would best be served with full disclosure. I indicated my position as the North American distributor in my first post in this thread.

I know from Marcin's growth that Millers has proven to be a threat to Amsoil in Poland. I know that with both KAPS and Samsonas now recommmending MIllers that Millers has even more credibility. So it is understandable that you wish to put Millers' into question. However, I find it highly inappropriate, and a cursory look at the differences between just the additive packages you posted between the two different oils you claim to be Millers will tell you something doesn't add up. The speculation you make about the NT content is wrong.

For everyone else, MIllers has now updated the data sheet on their website to show that 0W30 is now okay to use on the street: http://www.millersoils.co.uk/automotive/tds-automotive.asp?prodsegmentID=927&sector=Motorsport Second sentence, second paragraph under APPLICATION: "Can be used for road cars where a fully synthetic 0w30 is recommended by the original manufacturer"

As for the performance of the oil, the data submitted is drrastically inconsistent with what we have seen. Referencing a study we did with 5W40 on one of our race cars, in approximately 2750km, the TBN fell from 11.0 to 10.4 (as compared to the assertion that it fell from 11.0 to 5.9 in 3000km). The hot viscosity fell from 13.4 cSt to 13.0 cSt (as opposed to 11.1 to 9.0). Case study for anyone who wishes to see.

My participation in this forum has been isolated to threads devoted to Millers, started by others. I have been upfront about my position in the industry, rather than attemping to give anyone the impression that I am an objective observer. You will not find me going into threads devoted entirely to my competitors to call into question their quality, here or anywhere else. Any references I have made to other oils has been anonymized so as to not show specifically whose oil I am referencing. Again, I feel that full disclosure serves the people here best, and attempting to sell one's own product on its own merit is also best for everyone here.

 

[gusgeds]

Hi 67King, I am quite perplexed by the amount of scepticism and near hostility directed towards yourself on this forum. I for one thank you for all the open information and links you have provided and hope you continue to provide them.
Everyone of us makes decisions on what lubricants we use by assessing all the information we can glean from all the resources available then deciding what is suitable for our individual needs and information is the key,--- please keep passing on the info, thanks, gus

 

[cp3]

Originally Posted By: gusgeds
Hi 67King, I am quite perplexed by the amount of scepticism and near hostility directed towards yourself on this forum. I for one thank you for all the open information and links you have provided and hope you continue to provide them.
Everyone of us makes decisions on what lubricants we use by assessing all the information we can glean from all the resources available then deciding what is suitable for our individual needs and information is the key,--- please keep passing on the info, thanks, gus


I have to second this post. I appreciate your company's position on not calling out competitors and all of the information contributed. Thanx.

 

[dennishiip]

Millers looks great. I'm sold. I'm gonna use in my Porsche(motor and gearbox)