Recent Topics
Tar Removal
by bobbob
11/28/14 12:30 AM
Chrysler Town and Country
by JHZR2
11/27/14 09:47 PM
Hours of operation - equivalence to miles / time
by aa1986
11/27/14 09:26 PM
Am now using (very amber color) Edge 0w40
by aa1986
11/27/14 09:24 PM
oci
by dieselbass
11/27/14 08:55 PM
Helmet lights
by buck91
11/27/14 08:39 PM
Leasing vs. Buying. What is your side?
by lawman1909
11/27/14 08:33 PM
Fear Getting Towed? You’ll Hate Watching This
by Falcon_LS
11/27/14 04:49 PM
Replacing parts before they fail
by Falcon_LS
11/27/14 04:17 PM
First Impressions: Cooper Discoverer H/T
by Falcon_LS
11/27/14 03:31 PM
Torn between tool brands
by renegade_987
11/27/14 12:34 PM
the beggars are really out in force today.
by Chris142
11/27/14 11:56 AM
Newest Members
Kernel, EdBurns, wolf9832, marine65, Focality
52012 Registered Users
Who's Online
32 registered (Azeem, bdcardinal, asiancivicmaniac, asand1, BusyLittleShop, bobbob, 1 invisible), 707 Guests and 156 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
52012 Members
66 Forums
222691 Topics
3525572 Posts

Max Online: 2862 @ 07/07/14 03:10 PM
Donate to BITOG
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#2645381 - 06/05/12 05:18 AM Re: Were going back to Regular Diesel at work [Re: Rob Taggs]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 27115
Loc: a prison island
Ever seen stuff grow in a diesel tank ?

Top
#2659011 - 06/19/12 06:50 PM Re: Were going back to Regular Diesel at work [Re: Rob Taggs]
Sunnyinhollister Offline


Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 440
Loc: Hollister, CA
What concentration was KDOT running? I always thought B5 would be good for lubricity but had not heard of these side effects before on the lower concentrations.
_________________________
2013 Chevy Cruze Eco 6MT - New member of the family
2012 Chevy Volt - 250+ MPG Lifetime average
1998 Jeep Wrangler Sport - 4.6L Stroker

Top
#2709487 - 08/09/12 07:56 AM Re: Were going back to Regular Diesel at work [Re: Rob Taggs]
Donald Offline


Registered: 03/21/04
Posts: 13667
Loc: Upstate NY
Wonder if this one runs biodiesel? (Note the 102 RPM!!)

The world's largest diesel engine is currently a Wärtsilä-Sulzer RTA96-C Common Rail marine diesel of about 84,420 kW (113,210 hp) @ 102 rpm[4] output.[5]
_________________________
2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4.0 - PP & M1
1999 Dodge Ram 2500 w/Cummins - Rotella T6 & M1
Amsoil ATF in both vehicles & Magnefine filter.

Top
#2741191 - 09/11/12 09:25 PM Re: Were going back to Regular Diesel at work [Re: Rob Taggs]
FrankieFX Offline


Registered: 09/11/12
Posts: 8
Loc: Ontario
Bio-diesel although a renewable sourced fuel is actually a very dirty fuel from the the equipment perspective.

It's good idea not yet really ready for the commercial world.

A ton of companies in Canada dumped the use of it this year. You would hard pressed to find a gas station selling it. The companies selling it claim it as such an environmental product. Not really environmental when a companies need to send trucks to the scrap yard.

I few things you may or may not about Bio-diesel.

1) Manufactures dump tons of anti-oxidants to keep it from going bad but these also contribute to depositing.

2) It can easily separate out of diesel during cold drops, Not talking arctic temps either. This makes it susceptible to freezing and clogging filters to everything else. Not recommended for cold climates.

3) Is especially hard on high pressure injector systems used on post 2007 road truck and European diesel cars. It is also known to cause irregular spray patterns. Pushing a milkshake through a coffee straw.

4) It burns much slower than regular diesel. The common thought is that Bio-Diesel has less energy than the mineral sourced. Not true at all, I've measured similar energy releases in the lab within 2-5%. The real reason bio-diesel runs less mileage is that 10-15% is still burning when the exhaust valve opens.

6) Running Bio-diesel in air cooled engines show 5% increase in head and exhaust temps!

5) Its production is highly unregulated. It full of low energy saturated bonds which should be removed before the process. But keeping the pork fat in during production raises profits. Saturated bonds just like your arteries leave behind deposits. These deposits are prone to becoming hard plaque and can start jamming up your piston rings. Not a great idea for an engine that relies on compression to work.

6) I've tested Bio-diesel and found tons of Hydoroxyl groups left in it. ie not a good idea to run drain cleaner through your bread winner. Again the bathtub production shows itself.

7) the lubricity and actual wear reduction is still yet to be proven. Much of testing is done under perfect ideal conditions but no one is yet to side by side wear testing and show documented wear reduction. Plus whats the point of trying to lubricate a fuel pump when is will probably corrode the seals instead.

We striped down a relatively new truck running B5 and you could use a putty knife to clean the combustion chamber. It has its place in protected lands but I think it causing more damage than good outside of that.
_________________________
Nissan 350Z - Red Line 5w30
Chevy z24 - Valvoline high mileage 5w30
Puch maxi moped Lubriflux 2charge 2-cycle

Top
#2853894 - 12/31/12 04:34 PM Re: Were going back to Regular Diesel at work [Re: Gene K]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1108
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: Gene K
B5 clogs up the 7 micron fuel filter element in my Davco in 1000 gallons of fuel. B20 in about 400 gallons. Thats despite running it for months. Im not saying all biodiesel will do it but the [censored] we are getting locally leaves much to be desired.

If I change to straight diesel from another supplier the level in the housing wont even change in 3000 gallons.


Wow. Bad supplier. I regularly use B10 - B15, and have for several years, and use a Davco 7 micron filter (Donaldson P550463), and I replace them at 40,000 miles and it still has to life left as fuel is still not quite to top. This on a Detroit S60.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

Top
#2893494 - 02/03/13 07:52 AM Re: Were going back to Regular Diesel at work [Re: Rob Taggs]
Fleetmon Offline


Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 1061
Loc: Pa
Just recently our fire department had issues with a Series 60 turning the fuel black....naturally our first thought was combustion soot from a bad injector fouling the fuel.....nope. This was another case of biodiesel eating away at a fuel line which in turn caused small particles from the fuel line to clog the flter (Davoc 382) and eventually cause low power.
_________________________
"In order to become the Master, a person must act as a servant."

NRA Endowment Member

Top
#2905882 - 02/14/13 09:55 AM Re: Were going back to Regular Diesel at work [Re: Fleetmon]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1108
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: Fleetmon
Just recently our fire department had issues with a Series 60 turning the fuel black....naturally our first thought was combustion soot from a bad injector fouling the fuel.....nope. This was another case of biodiesel eating away at a fuel line which in turn caused small particles from the fuel line to clog the flter (Davoc 382) and eventually cause low power.


Haven't seen that with my previous Cummins ISX or my current Series 60. Now, the Cummins would turn fuel black, but that was due to asphaltine, which is the fuel is getting "cooked' in the rail before returning to the tanks. That problem has been addressed by Cummins and other OEM's and now you can get products to add to the fuel to break down the carbon molecules that are bonding to create this stuff. Many confuse it with Algae growth. Two different things going on. But hey, since biodiesel is out there, lets just blame it instead. And never mind that the filter in the Davco can be changed when fuel reaches top of filter to eliminate power loss. Does anyone ever do any maintenance checks on this stuff or do they just shine up the trucks and drive them? That's the purpose of a Davco unit.... being able to see how full the filter is, seeing what contaminates are in there that it caught, and being able to easy change out the filter if needed.

I have been using various blends of biodiesel for over 6 years. In my Jeep Liberty Diesel, in my semi's, and my ag equipment. I have never had a fuel related problem.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

Top
#2908785 - 02/16/13 05:55 PM Re: Were going back to Regular Diesel at work [Re: Rob Taggs]
Fleetmon Offline


Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 1061
Loc: Pa
Hey- I like biodiesel but it has its limitations in some applications....in THIS case a fuel line was disintegrating...saw it with my own eyes. It could have been a bad line to begin with but who knows and better yet, who's going to chance it....it a truckngoes down you might lose a load of lettuce or something, when an emergency response vehicle goes down you might lose people.

The firefighters were following proper maintenance and they reported it when it was noticed. A six-pack was replaced first then further diagnosis revealed a bad fuel line. I can guarantee these trucks are maintained better than most fire departments. As an aside, we also had a lot of trouble with the C18's in our snow equipment and biodiesel was to blame...mostly because the fuel went "stale".

Good for you that you haven't had any trouble....doesn't mean everyone will have your experiences.
_________________________
"In order to become the Master, a person must act as a servant."

NRA Endowment Member

Top
#3244985 - 01/11/14 01:45 PM Re: Were going back to Regular Diesel at work [Re: Rob Taggs]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1108
Loc: Kellogg, IA
If they spec the proper equipment, or are using something from 20 years ago, you would be correct that some will experience problems. But therein lies the problem most times... folks will spec things with the general mindset "that's the way we always did it". And it is common knowledge among commercial truck users, that fuel lines will become problematic after 5-7 years, irregardless of bio being used or not. This is why it is called PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE. You change some components based on typical life cycles and not just "when it breaks". Or in this case, when you fuel lines start falling apart. A proper check of fuel system occasionally would have revealed fuel line deterioration long before it was a major problem.

Proper maintenance is not just checking the oil level and seeing that the washer fluid in full and the tires are aired up. Changing things like crankshaft dampers, fuel lines, running overheads on diesels, and a host of other things constitute preventative maintenance. Waiting till major catastrophes occur is called Reactive Maintenance. And truth be told, that is how most maintenance occurs.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

Top
#3249921 - 01/16/14 06:13 AM Re: Were going back to Regular Diesel at work [Re: Rob Taggs]
Fleetmon Offline


Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 1061
Loc: Pa
I call bull on changing fuel lines at 5-7 years.....that is not preventive maintenance but rather a case of using a product through the fuel line that is not compatible with the material. I've been a heavy duty diesel mechanic for over 40 years and have worked on many fleet vehicles and I can assure you that I have never seen nor heard of a fleet requiring fuel lines be changed at any interval. I have also attended many training classes for an assortment of diesel engines ranging from one-cylinder Deutz to EMD710's and I am (or was) a Detroit Diesel Guildsman and have worked on and was certified to work on every DD engine type ever built.....still don't recall any specific direction regarding fuel lines except when they failed.

We have some equipment that is over twenty years old with the same rubber products that were installed when new.

Biodiesel was mandated for use in several of our agencies but most of them burn enough fuel to rotate fresh fuel continually......snow equipment may or may not be used heavily from year to year and sometimes fuel may sit for a while....it was determined by Caterpillar and a local lab that the fuel had deteriorated to the point that it was actually acidic (for lack of a better term) and tabletop tests showed the fuel would dissolve samples of the fuel line used by the OEM.

No doubt the biodiesel we used was not up to par but we are also limited to whatever supplier provides fuel for all of the agencies involved....it's not like we could specify what/how we wanted our fuel. We instructed the diesel users in OUR agency to use #2 diesel exclusively and avoid fueling at sister agencies that dispensed both diesel and biodiesel.

However, with that said, certain types of our snow and emergency equipment are used at airports throughout the world and number in the thousands yet the vast majority of them have no issues....actually none that were polled had any issues related to ours.

I'm certainly not trying to start an arguement as to the use of biodiesel and if it works for you, great! It does not mean it will work for everyone and the fuel quality of biodiesel varys tremendously with most of the deficiencies being caused by the supplier.

Also, good for you for using Davco fuel filtration.....Davco is a great product and we specify all of our equipment with Davco filtration and we use their fuel scrubber in all of our equipment annually.


Edited by Fleetmon (01/16/14 06:15 AM)
_________________________
"In order to become the Master, a person must act as a servant."

NRA Endowment Member

Top
#3276841 - 02/10/14 10:18 AM Re: Were going back to Regular Diesel at work [Re: AVB]
cowhorse01 Offline


Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 396
Loc: Oceanside, CA
Originally Posted By: AVB
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Ha! The problem is that you live in Lansing. We too (Lansing, Michigan) had variable results last winter with bio-fuel. Some companies had huge winter problems (trash haulers) while the guy down the street had none.

I've read that problems with the bio component, ultra low sulfer chemistry, and correct additive package are to blame.

Storing bio in an old gunked up regular diesel tank also loosens all the crud up...change them filters often.


I worked at the motor pool on a USMC installation for over 6 years. Biodesel was a mandate for us. I have never seen a fuel tank get gunked up by real diesel fuel. I have seen the build up that results from using biodiesel, we were contantly having to rebuild injector pumps and have tanks cleaned out. The more a truck was used the less problems we would have, but I have know idea where the idea that biodiesel cleans and breaks up old fuel system gunk from diesel. The gunk that biodiesel leaves behind is almost like tar. The only thing I have seen easily remove that stuff is canned carb cleaner. We have had trucks that have never had real diesel run in them have the same problems. So it is not biodiesel cleaning out the regular diesel gunk. It is biodiesel turning into gunk.



I know I am a little behind on quoting this, by like 18 months, but I could not agree more!! I am glad to see someone with real world knowledge finally step up and say something. I have always wondered where people think all of this gunk comes from. Extremely odd to me, but let them think it I guess.
_________________________
Byron
1997 F-350, 7.3 Diesel, E4OD, Rotella Dino 15w-40, Donaldson ELF7405
1989 Volvo 740 Turbo Wagon
2011 34' Sundance TT



Top
#3292112 - 02/23/14 07:34 PM Re: Were going back to Regular Diesel at work [Re: Rob Taggs]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1108
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Well, the time bio was coming on the scene, was also the time that ULSD was being mandated at the pumps. While bio does have its issues, ULSD also has brought some problems to the game. And some problems folks experience, the blame could be going to the wrong culprit.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2