Amsoil MCT 10w30 on Honda NT700VA Deauville 2007

[mesastoura]

I received this this report from Blackstone.

My 1st sample was run for 3400km only.

Do aluminium and copper increase linearly with kms ?
If yes it looks as if both oils produce about the same wear per km on these two metals, correct ?

This oil has thinned, from 11,1 to 8,54
This has also has happened to my previous sample (oil used was redline 5w20). From 9,1 to 7,71

Why do you think this has happened ? Could this be due to fuel dilution ? (as the redline person suggested to me). Here is his complete reply back from April 2011:
Quote:
The oil analysis basically looks good, the wear metals reasonable, though without history don’t have a normal base line to reference.

The 5W20 is completely sheer stable, it will not sheer down and loose viscosity so that reading is either a bad number or there was significant fuel dilution. The fuel dilution doesn’t show up in the analysis but could have been missed, the flash point being about 100°F low would also be an indication of substantial fuel dilution.

A higher viscosity would be advisable with that suspected fuel dilution.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil


Could it be some other reason ?

Similarly I see the flash points of both oils decreased significantly.

Also note that I am using evans coolant which has no water.
Could it be some leak?

Is this an indication that I should use an even thicker oil ?

Should I use 10w40 or should I investigate something ?

My apologies for the chaotic structure of my questions.

 

[skyship]

I think all engine oils shear to a lower viscosity depending on the base stock and the amount of viscosity improvers. The closer the two numbers for a multigrade the less they tend to shear and top quality full synthetics shear less than conventional oils. Obviously fuel contamination can effect the viscosity, but the chap from Redline must be a salesman.
If your oil shears to too low a figure then either move up a grade to a 5 or 10/40, or look for a more shear stable oil, although that might not be so easy.

 

[tc1446]

Go with 10-40 and if that doesn't hold up, add a quart of 20-50 next time. Thats what I had to do with my Can Am which shears oil badly. The 20-50 made a world of difference.

 

[sunruh]

post the reports so we can look at them!

 

[mesastoura]

@skyship and @tc1446
I wonder if simply going to a thicker oil is the best solution to my issue. If this is a general issue then why is honda recommending a 10w30 oil ?
Is there something special happening to my engine ?
I guess I should search for UOAs from the same engine ...

@sunruh: please click on the word "this" at the first line of my initial post.

 

[sunruh]

thanks for hiding it.

that susvis shows 20wt oil. with little fuel.
the flash was also low (below 400).
to me, these numbers mean either a very poor oil choice for your bike. or there was a lot more fuel actually in the oil and they just didnt read it that way.

your copper, aluminum and iron are all in the high to very high range for 4971 miles. or its normal for this engine. hard to say if we even have this motor/bike in the usa to compare it with.

it would appear that the oil you ran cant really handle 5000miles (8000kms) in that motor.

i would chose something else.

 

[skyship]

OK now I've found the report it does look like you have above average cylinder wear, so try moving up to a 5 or 10/40 to see if that helps.
It's warm in Athens and if the 40 grade does not help then try a 10/50 race oil. The report does not show fuel contamination, so the shearing is just from high oil temps around the rings and cylinder head and is normal to some extent for a bike engine.
No idea why Honda said a 10/30.

 

[Cardenio327]

Mesastoura, you'll find lots more motorcycle specific advice in the other motorcycle section on this site.

The Deauville has a shared sump, it doesn't matter how shear resistant Redline thinks their oil is, it is still going to shear in your application.

Honda backspecced most if not all of their 2006 and newer cycles to 10w30, so you should be fine using 10w30 as long as it is a good quality MC (motorcycle) oil or HDEO (diesel engine oil), regardless of shearing. Not a good idea to use 5w20 again, definitely not an approved viscosity for your cycle.

10w40 MC oil or 5w40/15w40 HDEO should work great in your machine, especially since you live in a warm climate. I don't see any reason to bother with 10w30 again if I were you.

 

[Mike Simmons]

Yes, we have the equivalent bike here in the US, and I have one. Firstly, I think the Red Line rep is incorrect in his theory of fuel dilution. From my experience, it is shear, plain and simple. I had a similar analysis report using Mobil 1 10-40 motorcycle oil when checked at 8,000 miles. The NT's shared sump engine will shear oil, no matter what brand or viscosity. I agree with the previous posters who suggest that a 5-20 is a wee bit thin for the NT. I have had my best results using Rotella T6 5-40. Here in the US it is widely available and relatively inexpensive and does meet the JASO MA spec. Hope this info helps!

Mike

 

[mesastoura]

I had no issues like that with my previous motorcycle which has a somehow similar engine
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByYKNOLiOlyqeXhmcmJUY0laNFE/edit?usp=sharing

However I was using 10w40 back then.

 

[mesastoura]

The official answer:
Quote:

Quote:
Does aluminum and copper increase linearly with kms ?

Usually no. Iron (from steel parts like cylinders and rotating shafts) is typically the only metal we expect to increase directly with use on the oil, but aluminum might in this case, at least to some extent. We never expect to see copper increase with use. Differences in engine operation can cause higher (and lower) wear to show up, so there may be other factors in the wear we are seeing. If you added any new parts recently, that could account for some of the excess metal.


Quote:
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/motorcycle/10w-30-advanced-synthetic-motorcycle-oil/
This oil has also thinned, from 11,1 to 8,54
This has also has happened to my previous sample (oil used was http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=1&pcid=21
redline 5w20). From 9,1 to 7,71
Why do you think this has happened ? Could this be due to fuel dilution ? (as the redline person suggested to me).

We always expect oil to shear down some from when it's new. Part of this is from an engines natural tendency to shear the oil, and fuel dilution may be part as well. We test for fuel using the flashpoint and both of your levels were normal, so it's unlikely that any excess fuel was present. That doesn't mean that the oil was free of fuel, it may still have had some, but anything less then 0.5% doesn't show up in our testing.


Quote:
Could it be some other reason ?

Another possible cause for the low viscosity this time is mixing of some lighter oil used previously. If something like 5W/20 was used right before this oil was put in, that lower viscosity oil would tend to thin your current oil out. There is always some residual oil left in the engine between changes.

Quote:
Similarly I see the flash points of both oils decreased significantly.

The flashpoint reacts a lot like the viscosity. When you first put an oil in use, the flashpoint tends to drop quite a bit, but then stabilizes, usually somewhere above 370F, unless a significant amount of fuel is getting into the oil.


Quote:
Also not that I using evans coolant which has no water.
Could it be some leak?

It's unlikely. Coolants like that usually still leave potassium and sodium in the oil if they are leaking into the engine.


Quote:
Is this an indication that I should use an even thicker oil ?

It is worth a short, though I am not sure that your current wear levels point to a problem. Maybe the wear was higher in the oil change right before this and is on it's way down now. Still, you can't go wrong using whatever viscosity oil that Honda recommends. I still think getting another sample at ~4,000 km is a good idea. We'll know a lot more as wear trends develop.

Let me know if you have any more questions

Indeed, the 10w30 oil was placed after the 5w20 and in addition to that I did not change the oil filter!

So I guess the answer is satisfactory.
It was an experiment and I had some additional wear but learned from it.
I guess an additional analysis, maybe on the oil used at the next oil change will confirm that all is ok, the engine has no issues and all is due to inappropriate oil used.

 

[mesastoura]

new analysis

I guess all looks fine now, or almost...

 

[alarmguy]

Yes, your not kidding all looks good now.
MY GOD, why on earth did you use a 5/20 oil in your motorcycle that calls for 10/30 and 10/40 oil???
It amazes me that you then wrote to Red Line about the issue, there was no issue, you were using an oil not recommended by Honda.... listen to your manual, they are smarter then you.
The min recommended weight for your bike is 10/30 and it clearly states also 10/40 ok, so if your concerned the 10/30 shears to much use the 10/40 ...

READ PAGE 106 of YOUR OWNERS MANUAL for oil

 

[mesastoura]

Just an experiment, that proved that the wet clutch shears the oil if specific additives in the oil don't exist (and specifications met).

Redline did not agree on that thought, they suggested that it was fuel dilution, that their oil is shear stable.

The latest analysis proved that there is no fuel dilution as the 10W30 oil with the appropriate specs keeps its viscosity, therefore I see not reason to switch to 10w40.

Btw, do you consider lucasoil better than amsoil ? I am now considering changing brand.

 

[Inspecktor]

Stay with the amsoil, it is holding up well in your bike.

 

[sunruh]

mesastoura
now that is a darn good report!
unless the lucsaoil what a LOT cheaper i would never even consider using it over the amsoil that just gave you a great report.

steve

 

[mesastoura]

Originally Posted By: Cardenio327
...

The Deauville has a shared sump, it doesn't matter how shear resistant Redline thinks their oil is, it is still going to shear in your application.
...

+1 to that.

However I don't exactly understood the reason. Luck of JASO specs maybe...

 

[alarmguy]

Since you asked, I personally consider Amsoil and some others superior to Lucas oil. I agree with the others, the Amsoil held up well in your bike and performed well.

 

[Mackelroy]

Amsoil has shown to have oxidative thickening with long runs in some motors. You just barely held 400 degree flash, yet your viscosity is higher than new.

You woulld have to believe the oil saw absolutely no degrade in 6,000 miles, which I think all should know cant be true.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Mackelroy
Amsoil has shown to have oxidative thickening with long runs in some motors. You just barely held 400 degree flash, yet your viscosity is higher than new.

You woulld have to believe the oil saw absolutely no degrade in 6,000 miles, which I think all should know cant be true.


MCT starts at 11.3 Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt per ASTM D445. This report shows 11.06, say 11.1 cSt.

Don't understand what your point is???

Stick with Amsoil. It seems to be serving you well, don't let others talk you out of it.