IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant

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Yes, using moly and WS2 bullet lubrication helps a lot. You are probably not actually using nano particle for lubrication. None of the sources I have seen provide a particle size in the nano range. A simple test is price. But it still works very well.

One of the things I want to do is lubricate the guns themselves. There are very tight (in a good gun) tolerance sliding interfaces under high pressure and stress. For that you want a "dry" lubricant. I much prefer a lubricant that does not attract and hold dust, sand, and other nasty things. For this you need IF WS2 with a penetration carrier that fairly rapidly evaporates and leaves behind the actual lubricant. The naked powder could be rubbed into the material, but the fluid insertion is simpler and probably more effective.

That is the basis of my quest for IF WS2 powder.

And I would like to apply it to engines and other things. It is probably the ultimate three-in-one oil.
 
Originally Posted By: alternety
Yes, using moly and WS2 bullet lubrication helps a lot. You are probably not actually using nano particle for lubrication. None of the sources I have seen provide a particle size in the nano range. A simple test is price. But it still works very well.

One of the things I want to do is lubricate the guns themselves. There are very tight (in a good gun) tolerance sliding interfaces under high pressure and stress. For that you want a "dry" lubricant. I much prefer a lubricant that does not attract and hold dust, sand, and other nasty things. For this you need IF WS2 with a penetration carrier that fairly rapidly evaporates and leaves behind the actual lubricant. The naked powder could be rubbed into the material, but the fluid insertion is simpler and probably more effective.

That is the basis of my quest for IF WS2 powder.

And I would like to apply it to engines and other things. It is probably the ultimate three-in-one oil.


I season the barrels with a mix of Tungsten Disulfide and alcohol which evaporates very quickly and leaves a nice coat on the barrel. The coated bullets burnishes it into the barrel. I've been doing it for quite some time now and it works very well. I forget what I paid I bought it a few years back, I recall it not being cheap though. I won't argue with you over it being Nano particles,
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since I bought it the company has changed their wording on the products, and hiked the prices. I just checked because this thread peaked my curiosity.
 
Mr. King;

There is definitely a Millers NT RACING 75W-140 gear oil now available here, correct??

I AM going to try this if so, and will be making an order shortly.
The L.A.T. 75W-140 I am currently using has a higher VI (199) than the Millers gear oils, so I want to keep that in the rear axle while there is still a chance of 0*-10*F ambient temps.
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yes there is a 75/140 NT. Torsen diff, right? Think I still have an SLP takeout somewhere. Anyway there is an LS modified version that would only apply to clutch type diffs. Wish we had a suitable ATF but the NT isn't good with the planetary gearsets. Hope with some growth in the States, we can develop some for the T5 and T56 trannies. The Nissan GT-R uses some sor of ATF too

oh yeah - I prefer to be addressed as "Harry"
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Originally Posted By: alternety

If you don't know what a Buckyball is, you can do a bit of research. The structure is named after architect Buckminster Fuller, the inventor of geodesic building structures. It is essentially a nano scale geodesic (from the atomic level crystalline formation) structure. It was initially observed in carbon. And was thought for a while to be only found there. This may be the base substance in lubricants claiming nano diamonds. I have not been able to get a clear answer to that. Secrecy seems to be rampant in the industry. Like it would keep any competent person with some equipment to determine the contents if they planned to manufacture a copy.


Interesting! G-oil boasts this revelation:

Quote:
G1 Racing Oil's unique proprietary ingredient called NANO GEODESIC BEARINGS are tiny spherical shaped particles that are postulated to spin at unimaginable high speeds to support adjacent oil molecules to squeeze more precious horsepower out of the engine.


I thought it was totally insane or at least tongue in cheek, but maybe they are serious?
 
That comment from G1 is a bit off. That is not really how it works. They don't spin at unimaginable speeds. They likely do not spin much at all.

My post you quoted may be a bit misleading in the context of this thread . Simply being a Buckyball does not necessarily make it IF WS2. Other things (e.g., carbon) can be found in this configuration.
 
Originally Posted By: alternety
King, could you perhaps list MSRP here?


Alright, looks like we have pricing worked out.

The Long Life ECO 5W30 (http://www.millersoils.co.uk/automotive/tds-automotive.asp?prodsegmentID=986&sector=Car) MAPs at $13.45/L, or $55.95/5L jug.

The Long Life C3 5W30 (LL04 for BMW, 229.51 for MB, Dexos2 for GM) (http://www.millersoils.co.uk/automotive/tds-automotive.asp?prodsegmentID=987&sector=Car) MAPs at $14.45/L, or $59.95/5L jug.

There is a semi-synthetic 10W40 and a 75W90 gear oil that we don't expect to sell much/any of, but if this interests you, please let me know. Those should be in the neighborhood of $12 and $22. Honestly, our race gear oil is only $25/L and for the extra cost, definately worth it.

If anyone wants to try any of this stuff, please e-mail me at [email protected]. Please do it ASAP, as we are placing an order very, very soon (like within days). At present, we've got no dealers carrying this stuff, so I can probably work out an incentive until we do.
 
Originally Posted By: alternety
Which of the oils is most appropriate for a 1999 A6 Quatro 2.8l? I will also feed a 1990 Honda accord.


The EE Longlife C3, with a change interval of approximately 9,000 miles or 12 months (that is a baseline recommendation from Millers - my company will recommend a UOA to determine chagne interval).

The semi-synthetic at 7500 mile (baseline) intervals would be recommended for the Accord.
 
Thanks. Both cars have always use a full synthetic so I would go with that. I just want to get the nano particles in there. I normally use 10W40 or 5W50 in the Audi so I wanted to be sure 5W30 is OK. That is what I use in the Honda.
 
Sorry, I grow confused again. I am not an oil person. Looking at the Millers site they show different percent of friction numbers for each of the two nano oils.

The C3 says:
A reduction in friction of up to 27% providing a reduction in wear of up to 14% compared to other 5w30 C3 grades.

The ECO says:
A reduction in friction of up to 47% providing a reduction in wear of up to 50% compared to other 5w30 ECO grades. Backwards compatible with previous M2C913-B specification.

Is that just a typo or a comparison to a different oil? In comparison to Mobile 1 (or maybe Amsoil) which of these would provide the best friction reduction? IS it additives making a difference. A brief explanation/tutorial would help a bunch because I do not want to miss ordering some.
 
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I am thinking I should state more clearly my question.

The C3 costs more than the ECO. The vendor documentation says C3 has less reduction in friction then the ECO. Why is this the case and how does it impact product selection for automobile use. Is one of the race oils a better choice? Is the percentage of nano particles in C3 and ECO different? If so which has the most?

An added question; I have a small diesel (around 30 HP). Is there a nano oil suitable for use in this engine?
 
Each one is compared to its non-NT counterpart, so there isn't a comparison against another brand. So the C3 will be compared to the XF Longlife C3 product designed to meet BMW LL04 and MB 229.51, et al. http://www.millersoils.co.uk/automotive/tds-automotive.asp?prodsegmentID=49&sector=Car is the info on the C3. The ECO is compared to this product: http://www.millersoils.co.uk/automotive/tds-automotive.asp?prodsegmentID=45&sector=Car

Unfortunately, with the proliferation of different fuels around the world, and OEMs pushing things closer and closer to the edge, and different ones seeking different drain intervals and sump capacities, we've seen a drastic increase in the types of oils that are out there. Frankly, on my end, it borders on maddening. I'm more of an airflow guy from my engineering time at Ford, but have gotten to know abotu race oils pretty well. Now I'm trying to learn about road and fleet oils, and I'll be honest - y'all are an intimidating bunch, and I'm sure there are folks here that know more about oil than me.

Anyway, so what that has all done is driven an insane number of products. Just looking at fully synthetic, extended drain interaval oils, there are SIX different ones that Millers sells in just the XF Long Life line (there are more in the Trident line, as well as the NT stuff). There is the base, ECO, C1, C2, C3, and C4 (note this is largely driven by ACEA requirements - http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/files/20090105_081211_ACEA_Oil_Sequences_Final.pdf for info). The ECO is the C5, which is a fuel economy requirement.

The ECO was designed most to meet Ford/C5 requirements, and the C3 to meet most of the other ones. The C5 designation is for improved fuel economy from what I have read.

In both cases, they are designed to be used with diesel applications, low/mid SAPS, etc. I'd speculate your 30hp diesel isn't that demanding, in that you don't have to worry abut DPF's and all that that drives additional requirements on the oil. I've got 5W30 in my wife's R320 CDI right now, but I'll be changing to a 5W40 soon, as I just prefer the heavier weight oil in the diesels (MB just specs 229.51, not viscosity). So overall, if your diesel can run a 5W30, either of these should be fine. If they need a 10W40, you'd need the semi synthetic. If they need heavier, your only option is our race oil.

By the way, the race oil uses Groups IV and V - it does use some III, as well. It offers better lubricity than PAO, and doesn't impede ZDDP's funtion like Ester, so it turns out that a small amount gives the best blend. That said, there's no reason you can't run it in a diesel, the highet ranking tech guy at Millers uses it in his daily driver (diesel Jag).

The race oils all use API SM base additive packs, but the lower viscosity variants do not meet the requirements due to elevated ZDDP content (Phosphorus is the controlled element). So they are quite robust as street oils, though the EPA is concerned that very high mileage cars that consume oil will over a prolonged period of time will contribute to catalytic converter degradation. As a result of said ZDDP conent, they will not meet the API certification (though the 5W40, 10W50, and 10W60 will).
 
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By the way, I apologize that I should have posted this in regards to the question of comparator oils. I do not have a CF comparison to street oils versus the competition, but I do have it for some race oils. Again, this is an HFRR test - the test was originally designed for testing diesel fuel injectors, but works incredibly well for CF measurements in boundary lubrication conditions. Millers is listed by name, and 5 of our more common competitors are shown, we well. Left Y-Axis (blue line) is temperature in C (red line), right Y-Axis shows both CF and % oil film thickness (green line - measured resistively, where 100% is no conduction and 0% is perfect conduction). X-Axis is time.

Scroll down past the dyno curves to the Bench Testing section for the friction curves. http://performanceracingoils.com/dynofriction-ezp-9.html
 
Is the Audi race tuned or something because 5/50 is kind of thick for normal use and it will shear down faster than the 10/40 if it's of the same type.
If economic nano particle additives worked one of the major oil companies would buy the rights or the company involved.
 
Originally Posted By: skyship
If economic nano particle additives worked one of the major oil companies would buy the rights or the company involved.


There are two reasons I disagree with your statement:
1. The biggest oil companies are like Nike - a whole lot more about marketing than about product. This board is more technically focused than 99.9% of our customer base. When certain companies give away oil to OEMs to have their stickers under the hood, the owners of the cars will tell you "My OEM's engineers say to ONLY use their recommended product." I can sell stuff to people who subscribe to Race Tech Magazine, it is a lot harder to sell to people who buy Car and Driver. I could go one all day about the stuff I deal with trying to convince people to even listen to me.

They have no incentive at this point to change.

2. Millers is privately owned. Acquiring a privately owned company isn't as simple as buying a controlling interest in a publicly traded one.


This isn't even addressing the technical merit. As wtih a great many technologies, they all start in motorsports. Here is an interesting article from SAE about the technology - http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/11201
 
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I mentioned this somewhere in here before. There is at least one oil additive I am sure is IF WS2 in retail packaging out there somewhere. Just not here. There are a couple of others I have found that have a high probability of IF WS2; same problem. One in Hong Kong (or Singapore) only for Asian distribution, another in South America. Neither of them ever responded to my emails requesting a source.

The Additive would probably be my preference over oil that included the material. Just more flexible.

One thing possibly interfering with at least one of these products is a (small I think) US company claiming to own the trademark on the name of the foreign product.
 
I just read the brochure. They did good work.

If I understand correctly, the C3 just relates to pollution standards in Europe. Thus, being in the US, it does me no good. So I should buy the non-C3.

While looking in the brochure I also came across fuel additives. The Ecomax versions state they are using the nano particles. The main Millers Oils site uses the same name but does not mention the nano. Will you be getting some of the gas and oil additives? I would probably buy some of those if the price was decent.

Re my Audi. Just a regular old Audi family station wagon. The mechanic I have change the oil always puts 5W50 in. He insists that that is what Audi intended. Looking at their chart, that is not quite true, but it makes him happy. Before turning oil changes over to him I always used 10W40.
 
Originally Posted By: 67King
Originally Posted By: skyship
If economic nano particle additives worked one of the major oil companies would buy the rights or the company involved.


There are two reasons I disagree with your statement:
1. The biggest oil companies are like Nike - a whole lot more about marketing than about product. This board is more technically focused than 99.9% of our customer base. When certain companies give away oil to OEMs to have their stickers under the hood, the owners of the cars will tell you "My OEM's engineers say to ONLY use their recommended product." I can sell stuff to people who subscribe to Race Tech Magazine, it is a lot harder to sell to people who buy Car and Driver. I could go one all day about the stuff I deal with trying to convince people to even listen to me.

They have no incentive at this point to change.

2. Millers is privately owned. Acquiring a privately owned company isn't as simple as buying a controlling interest in a publicly traded one.


This isn't even addressing the technical merit. As wtih a great many technologies, they all start in motorsports. Here is an interesting article from SAE about the technology - http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/11201


^^^VERY well put!!
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THIS is my answer to all of those on here who say the oils I use are "overkill", and "just lightening my wallet", or that I should just use an off the shelf Sino-Mart oil, since the LSxes in Vettes came with that as the factory fill.
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