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#3384131 - 05/29/14 05:01 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Report out today that the 1.39 billion cut that EPA has proposed would have the same environmental impact as taking 580,000 cars off the road. That translates that if you end corn ethanol it would have the same impact as taking 6 million cars off the road. This administration is going to have hard time avoiding this environmental issue.

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#3384773 - 05/30/14 10:15 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
dlundblad Offline


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 1274
Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
Report out today that the 1.39 billion cut that EPA has proposed would have the same environmental impact as taking 580,000 cars off the road. That translates that if you end corn ethanol it would have the same impact as taking 6 million cars off the road. This administration is going to have hard time avoiding this environmental issue.


Could you dummy this up for me? I am having a hard time understanding it. lol.
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#3384797 - 05/30/14 11:10 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: dlundblad]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14229
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
Report out today that the 1.39 billion cut that EPA has proposed would have the same environmental impact as taking 580,000 cars off the road. That translates that if you end corn ethanol it would have the same impact as taking 6 million cars off the road. This administration is going to have hard time avoiding this environmental issue.


Could you dummy this up for me? I am having a hard time understanding it. lol.


yeah it's a mouthful for sure! If the figures are accurate (this group revises the numbers later at will) this means using ethanol is about 5,420,000 cars worse than nothing!
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#3384913 - 05/30/14 01:35 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SteveSRT8]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2321
Loc: Upper Midwest
Yes, what he means is that the report he referenced (can you post a link?) shows that there is a net negative environmental impact to the use of ethanol as motor fuel. In other words, it is worse to use ethanol as fuel than if we did not use it. Therefore, not using 1.39 billion (gallons?) of ethanol results in "helping" the environment just the same as if 580,000 fewer cars were on the road.
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#3385019 - 05/30/14 04:06 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Sorry I should have been more clear and I not good at links. The Environmental Working Group (EWG) posted an article (Ethanol's Broken Promise). The group calls out the RFS to be more truthful in their claims about clean air. In their analyst they found the impact corn ethanol has verses gasoline would be the same as taking 580,000 cars off the road if EPA sticks to their 1.39 billion gallon cut in the mandate. If the mandate were 15 billion gallons total, removing the ethanol would be the same as taking 6,260,000 cars off the road. They only talked about the 1.39 billion gallon cut but if you look at the whole program how do you not put and end to this boondoggle and not allow it till it meets emission levels lower than gasoline?

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#3385030 - 05/30/14 04:18 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1544
Loc: Illinois
Don't forget all those trucks and trains that have to haul the ethanol because they can't put it down the pipeline.

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#3403160 - 06/21/14 04:56 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 882
Loc: Kellogg, IA
I'll take whatever environmental "impact" ethanol may have compared to the days of the 60's and 70's pollution. Sometimes it is beneficial to remember where we have been compared to what we have now. As much as the chicken little crowd thinks the sky is falling, what we have today is virtually a paradise compared to the pollution and environmental impacts of the past. Haven't heard of a river catching on fire lately like it did to the Cuyahoga river back in the day. And sometimes a little bit of exaggeration is in order also....... per George Carlin.... "scientists today have determined that saliva causes stomach cancer. However, only when swallowed in small amounts over a long period of time."

That ethanol is not quite the ideal fuel to answer all of our ills, it is hardly the beginning of the end of life as we know it on the planet. After all, compare the environmental impact of a spilled tanker of ethanol and a spilled tanker of gasoline. I would prefer the ethanol spill. At least it is biodegradable.
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#3403376 - 06/21/14 10:01 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1544
Loc: Illinois
Ethanol is a lousy fuel and is expensive to make. Drives up food prices.

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#3403501 - 06/22/14 01:36 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: TiredTrucker]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26045
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
That ethanol is not quite the ideal fuel to answer all of our ills, it is hardly the beginning of the end of life as we know it on the planet. After all, compare the environmental impact of a spilled tanker of ethanol and a spilled tanker of gasoline. I would prefer the ethanol spill. At least it is biodegradable.


Bieing miscible in any percentage with water wuld make the ethanol spill a disaster and harder to clean up
Hydrocarbons will float on lakes, and atop the groundwater, making their extraction and clean-up way easier than with things like ethanol, MTBE, Glycol also biodegradable) etc.

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#3403971 - 06/22/14 05:33 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 882
Loc: Kellogg, IA
But unlike MTBE, ethanol is not a carcinogen.

What drives up food prices is the falling value of the dollar, called inflation. Beef is easily double the value of a few years ago, on the hoof, Pork is about 40% higher, and poultry is about 20% higher, with overall consumer food prices up about 15%. But corn is the same price it was 20 years ago. there have been some fluctuations in corn price, for sure, due to a drought a couple of years ago, etc. But the price has been fairly consistent on average since the Clinton administration. Kinda hard to justify that ethanol production drives up food prices. And not sure how it would anyway. Only a portion of a kernel of corn is used for ethanol production. Most of the kernel is actually used for other things, primary high protein feed supplements.

Roughly 15-20% of the U.S. corn production is actually used for human consumption. Of the 80% left, only 40% of the that is used for ethanol production, and 80% of that corn is also made into other feed products. Only the starches and sugars from the kernel are needed for ethanol production.

If it is so expensive to make, then why is it cheaper on the exchange market than gasoline? No, it is not because it is subsidized, because ethanol producer subsidies were eliminated over 2 years ago. Ethanol as a commodity on the futures exchange markets was $2.082 on Friday June 20. Gasoline was $3.122. Sounds pretty competitive to me.

Sure, it is not the "perfect" fuel, as there is really no such thing. All fuels have their positives and negatives. But it is a good fuel in the right application. After all, when GM and Ricardo can design a V6 3.2L EBDI engine that gets the same HP and Torque as the 6.6L Duramax diesel, and do it on E85 and get better economy, I would say that E85 has a place in the fuels game.

I can understand that some have some personal bias against ethanol, and that's cool. Personally, ever since I read a Popular Mechanics article where they took an AMC V8 and converted it to hydrogen, much the same way that you would convert to propane or NG, I have been chomping at the bit for a hydrogen internal combustion engine along with a reliable source of hydrogen to fuel it, so I have no love affair with ethanol or gasoline.
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#3404065 - 06/22/14 07:48 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Shannow]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 10976
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Bieing miscible in any percentage with water wuld make the ethanol spill a disaster and harder to clean up

I was just reading a paper the other day about ethanol in the environment, and the half life is under 10 days out of the sun and about 0.25 days in the sun. Due to its miscibility, it won't really accumulate in groundwater.

TiredTrucker: Ethanol is a carcinogen, but just not the same way that some other fuel components are - long term, low concentration exposure isn't an issue.
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#3424978 - 07/14/14 09:35 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 882
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Just hauled another load of high protein feed supplement to Howard City, MI from the biofuel refinery at Blair, NE. Some livestock are going to love that feed supplement made from dried distillers grain that was the base stock for ethanol production. Yep, every bushel of corn that is used for ethanol production is taken out of circulation from the feed supply. NOT! And the folks that mix this high protein product in feeds must really like it, because they are sure willing to ante up to have me bring it to them. While I was at the Blair facility, train car after train car (no not tanker cars of ethanol, though they were being loaded up too) and intermodel container after container were being loaded with food products made in conjunction with ethanol production. Y'all ought to take the time out when you take a trip somewhere and take a tour of a major biofuels facility. Could be a real eye opener.
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#3424999 - 07/14/14 09:51 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1544
Loc: Illinois
Is the cost and calorie content the same as raw grain? More to feed than protein.

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#3425109 - 07/14/14 11:45 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 882
Loc: Kellogg, IA
I never meant to imply that the product was the only thing fed to some livestock. It is a feed supplement. Of course, the cost is higher than raw grain, since it is a processed feed. But likewise, it has a higher protein concentration than raw grain. The same can be said for soy meal. I suppose one could feed raw soybeans to livestock, but it might not work out as well. But processed soy meal is a better product, and the oil is removed during that process and goes in to other things like biodiesel. Livestock across the spectrum being raised for meat production have the product mixed into the feed. It is but one part of any nutritional feeding program for livestock. Chelated minerals are also mixed in. And the feed itself is a mix of different items from legumes to grasses to grains. Anyone who thinks that cattle in a feed lot only eat corn are misinformed quite a bit. Just like humans, it takes a well rounded diet to produce quality livestock for slaughter. And it has been widely accepted that supplements made from dried distillers grain also help prevent intestinal colitis in feedlot animals.

While ethanol may be one product from corn, it is hardly the only product from the very same corn.
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#3425154 - 07/15/14 02:25 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26045
Loc: a prison island
TT...in another thread, you explained that cirn was grass and tgat was why it was good to feed cattle...a bit different to the latest post

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