Recent Topics
Looking For Economical Vehicle
by 13Tacoma
Today at 01:54 AM
M/T Fluid Change in '06 Corolla
by BrandonVA
Today at 01:10 AM
Biggest AC Delco/Fram Ultra for GM LSA?
by GM4LIFE
Today at 12:10 AM
using M1 High Mileage... having doubts, switch?
by Legend11
Yesterday at 11:55 PM
What is white mask symbol on violet back ground
by jorton
Yesterday at 11:39 PM
Took the Amsoil plunge today.
by 340_Magnum
Yesterday at 11:32 PM
2013 Silverado 5.3 lifter noise
by gofasterrrr
Yesterday at 10:12 PM
Installed my last PureOne today.
by Hollow
Yesterday at 09:55 PM
2014 silverado oil issue
by Jschreffler81
Yesterday at 09:14 PM
Ford Duratec 2.0
by pbm
Yesterday at 08:47 PM
Improving Vision
by lawman1909
Yesterday at 08:19 PM
Made a headlamp harness for the Miata
by Klutch9
Yesterday at 08:09 PM
Newest Members
340_Magnum, aselinger, extrabigjon, monron, Jschreffler81
51672 Registered Users
Who's Online
15 registered (david_ES2, hpb, JTSR71, 3800Series, 901Memphis, 1 invisible), 552 Guests and 149 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
51672 Members
64 Forums
221089 Topics
3494874 Posts

Max Online: 2862 @ 07/07/14 03:10 PM
Donate to BITOG

Page 7 of 10 < 1 2 ... 5 6 7 8 9 10 >
Topic Options
#3340802 - 04/12/14 04:26 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1008
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Actually, if you check in with many geologists, we are in a relative cool phase of planetary history. There have been many occurrences of far warmer temps globally than anything we are even close to. And a news flash, and you didn't hear it here first.... ever since the last ice age we have been warming. I know that may shock some folks.

Problem is, no one is defining what is "normal". And the reason is, because no one really knows. Much of this hoopla over greenhouse gasses and climate change stuff is a recent phenomenon that is not based on a starting point of what is normal. No one even takes time to consider that the climate we are in is in the abnormal category and the planet if slowly changing to a more normal cycle. It is purely stupid to base an idea on a blip in time instead of the whole picture. Many here would concede that a single oil sample does not show a trend line. Well, a couple of hundred years of humans even giving a rip about the climate is about the same thing.

Given that equatorial fauna has been shown to have grown at all locations on the planet at one time, including the polar regions, I think we have a long way to go. Even most geologists agree that there have been several times in earth history when the so-called greenhouse gasses were far higher than they are now, and that they really didn't have that great of an effect in the climate.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

Top
#3340808 - 04/12/14 04:38 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SHOZ]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1008
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Ethanol has devolved into a massive job and farm subsidy without directly coming from the Agriculture Department.

Each plant also uses over a million gallons a day of water. They were going to put one up in my county but this nixed that idea. Too many farmers and others depend on a stable water table.


Ok.... I'll bite. I live within 3 hrs driving of over 42 ethanol plants. I have yet to see any of them use 1 million gallons of water a day. Well, maybe the monster Conagra biofuel facility in Blair, NE. But they get their water from the Missouri river, and that wiped out a lot of folks a couple of years ago with massive flooding. And why is it then, many farmers still install drainage tile into their cropland to keep the water table at a more moderate level if water is such a short commodity on crop land? This is done in the vast majority of the corn belt, with special emphasis on MN, IA, IL, IN, OH, and MI which are the heaviest producers of corn though there is not one major ag state that doesn't have drainage tile installed. Been doing that for over 100 years and it hasn't slowed one bit. I have passed several farms recently that have newly installed tile drainage systems. I grew up doing this line of work with my dad. My neighbor just bought out a tile installer operation and he is hurting for enough hours in the day to get all the work done for farmers in my area. No... it is not used for irrigation purposes, it is for removing excess water and keeping the water table from fluctuating. Of all the farmland in the U.S., only about 15% is ever irrigated, and most of that is done by produce farms in the SW part of the country. Very little cropland used for corn production is irrigated, in relation to the total grain production of the U.S. You really need to have a chat with your state university ag extension service office. They can fill you in.

There are no subsidies for ethanol. I will concede there was in the past. But not for the last few years. And farmers have not been paid subsidies for growing corn this century. Subsidies are based on a floor price of $1.79 a bushel. Corn has been above $4 a bushel all this century. And there is a government limit on the amount of ethanol that can be produced from corn... 14 billion gallons per year. Last year, we produced 13.7 billion gallons, so we are at the cap now. Just can't produce any more from corn. That is why we import ethanol from outside the country. The only way we can go now is cellulosic ethanol and ethanol from biomass, neither which is cost effective right now.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

Top
#3340875 - 04/12/14 06:01 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: Illinois
That is the testimony that the proposed plant gave to the county board about the million gallons a day. It was the main reason they were denied.How do you know what they use unless you can get readings from their meters?

There is a federal EPA mandate to use ethanol in gasoline. it that is not a subsidy I don't know what you call it. http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/renewablefuels/

As far as field drainage that is to speed up the drainage of water so they can get planted in the spring.

Corn subsidies .... http://farm.ewg.org/progdetail.php?fips=00000&progcode=corn

Top
#3340959 - 04/12/14 07:44 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SHOZ]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1008
Loc: Kellogg, IA
This is like calling a tax credit a subsidy. A subsidy is a direct payment by the government to the entity in question. Government also mandates air bags, impact bumpers, seat belts, etc, etc, etc. So should all those others be thrown under the bus also? After all, isn't this also a "jobs program"? I don't want to pay for a lot of this stuff either.

Now, I deal directly with most of these ethanol plants. I haul feed products from them to feed mills across the midwest. I see almost daily their operation. I don't get my information from magazines and newspaper articles written by people who barely know how to raise a garden, let alone understand the agriculture sector. The limit on corn ethanol production is from the government themselves. And the water use, there are many of these ethanol plants that do not have access to the amounts of water per day that you read. Some do, like a stated. The massive (and I do mean massive) biofuels complex at Blair, NE might actually need the water level you state. But that water is freely available from the Missouri river, which Conagra's demands would not even put a dent in that water flow. I suggest you take a look at the ethanol plants near Galva, IA, Sheldon, IA, New Cambria, MO, Worthington, MN, Claremont, MN, just to name a few. They are not any large source of water, and the local farming interests are not even affected. I have seen these facilities first hand and they do not use the level of water that you claim.

Now, to be fair, there are different methods for making ethanol from corn. The most adapted methods used by the majority of average production ethanol plants use approximately 2.5 gallons of water for each gallon of ethanol produced. The typical ethanol plant will produce ballpark 100 million gallons of ethanol per year. That equates to just under 7000 gallons of water per day on a 365 cycle. The Claremont facility I mentioned publishes this information freely. These facilities also eliminate liquid discharge and recycle a large portion of the water they need for production.

The reason for field drainage is only partially due to getting into fields sooner in the spring. But that is mostly handled by intake pipe systems installed along the tile drainage lines. Drain tile is primarily for keeping the water table at a preferred level so that root systems will develop deeper for stronger, healthier plants, which in turn enhances yield potential. High water tables limit root structure growth, then when the drier parts of the year occur, the plants do not have the deep root systems to survive the drier parts of the growing season. Also, the deeper root systems are less likely to be detrimentally affected by root rot and various pests. Like I stated, I grew up doing this stuff. My dad was a consultant to Iowa State University regarding the methods for doing this. He was also a past President of the Iowa Land Improvement Contractors Association. I know the topic very intimately. Plus we were farmers. We know what crops need to grow properly. And drain tile systems are CRITICAL for effective crop production.

On the subsidy issue, not one farm operation in the area I live has received one dime of corn subsidies this century, as non of them have qualified because the corn price has not dropped below the basement price of $1.79 a bushel. I can't speak to contracts that have their own game going on. And crop insurance programs are across the board on all production, regardless the crop in question. It is analogous to the flood insurance program. it pays if the the crop is destroyed by natural weather. That is not a direct subsidy to the farmer in any way. And in your chart, crop insurance programs garnered the largest portion of money. Actual crop price protection garnered barely blip.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

Top
#3341052 - 04/12/14 09:46 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: Illinois
Ok I see you are part of the ethanol industry so obviously you are partial to it's use.

I don't want it. I live in the middle of the corn belt. I sure don't want E15 because the gasoline use is dropping and along with it the ethanol usage so the only way to comply with the Renewable Fuels Act is to up the concentration of ethanol in gasoline. I do not want half my sales tax money being refunded to the station operators who sell E10 in Illinois.

The million gallons a day was what they said they would use. Why would they say that if it were not true? Ask your local ethanol production plants how much water they use. coffee


Edited by SHOZ (04/12/14 09:48 PM)

Top
#3341222 - 04/13/14 07:05 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SHOZ]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
What's the reason for the mandate? Replace oil usage right. EROI on corn ethanol is said to be about 1.07. It takes roughly .93 units of fossil fuel energy to get one unit corn ethanol energy. So when we use one unit corn ethanol energy we have actually used 1.93 units of energy. Is this what we call good energy conservation? Five million acres of setaside land put back into crop production is taking a toll on the environment. It's really hard to find one positive for this program. Sure it keeps farmers busy and employs more people, but the money it burdens on the consumer actually hurts the economy more. What business wouldn't do better if the government mandated the purchase of their product. I have yet to see where the true corn ethanol lobbyist are satisfied with the 14 million cap. Most places I have seen they want this cap removed. 50% of the corn crop in the corn belt is going into this program with little or no reduction in our oil usage. How much corn can be allowed to go into this program? Almost every major study talks about the negative effects on food security. The major reason for E15 is to eventually place even a larger burden on the consumer.

Top
#3341291 - 04/13/14 09:19 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15128
Loc: Sunny Florida
Tax credits are bought and sold. They are real, and they are just like money. They have the exact same effect as a subsidy or a mandate.

The program should stand on its own. It saves no oil at all, and it costs us all in environmental damages and waste. Not to mention pollution of air and water. The closer you look the less you'll like it, unless you're drinking it...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

Top
#3341319 - 04/13/14 09:51 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: Illinois
By reducing your fuel mileage 2%-5% it also increase you taxes paid. In Illinois there is a fuel tax and a sales tax on gasoline as well as the federal tax.

Top
#3342886 - 04/14/14 08:22 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
What's the reason for the mandate? Replace oil usage right. EROI on corn ethanol is said to be about 1.07. It takes roughly .93 units of fossil fuel energy to get one unit corn ethanol energy.


If that were true why is ethanol less than the cost of gasoline/diesel?

Many people are math challenged and that really frustrates me. There's really no excuse in this day and age.

Top
#3342921 - 04/14/14 08:53 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: turtlevette]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Turtlvette ethanol is selling at $2.34 and gasoline $3.00, at 2/3 the energy it needs to sell for $2.00 to break even. Very seldom in the past 6 years has it been break even or less. A good example is it cost 20% more to use E85 in a flex vehicle. This program is heavily supported by the government thus hiding a lot of true cost.

Top
#3343140 - 04/15/14 04:26 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26797
Loc: a prison island
LOL

chuck1955, you obviously haven't taken into consideration that a gallon of ethanol in a fuel tank can deliver more energy than there is in the fuel in the tank...that's ethanol science from turtle to explain why more expensive is actually less expensive.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette

If you had any engineering or technical background at all, you would understand. That goes for clevy too. I don't know how to take this stuff down to 3rd grade level.

You don't understand that for a gallon of gasoline some percentage is converted to work, and the rest is waste in the form of incomplete combustion, waste heat, friction, etc? You can't as easily lean gas out to 20/1 or more to get a more efficient burn and resulting more complete conversion of gasoline to energy. A fuel like ethanol might be able to burn much leaner thus converting more of the product to energy. I envision a lean burn mode kicking in when the cruise control is on or something similar.

example

1 gal gas = x btu
1 gal ethanol = .7x btu

if gas conversion is 60% we have .6 btu work
if ethanol conversion is 90$ we have .9*.7 btu = .63 btu

do you understand where I'm headed with this?


See, simple math coupled with made up science, and pigs can fly at a lower cost.

Top
#3343224 - 04/15/14 07:28 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: turtlevette]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15128
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
What's the reason for the mandate? Replace oil usage right. EROI on corn ethanol is said to be about 1.07. It takes roughly .93 units of fossil fuel energy to get one unit corn ethanol energy.


If that were true why is ethanol less than the cost of gasoline/diesel?

Many people are math challenged and that really frustrates me. There's really no excuse in this day and age.


yes, indeed they are...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

Top
#3343667 - 04/15/14 04:33 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: TiredTrucker]
Tempest Offline


Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 10468
Loc: Las Vegas NV
Quote:
It has no government subsidies being paid to the industry, for a few years now.

How about the market distortions that decades of subsidies and import tariffs have caused?

Everything is OK now that the industry was developed on the backs of the general public?

Are mandates that the public buy the product in conjunction with another product they really want not a subsidy?

Could the 25-40% of land that goes into corn ethanol production not be used for something else? How does that distort the food market?
_________________________
“Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.” --- Henry Rosovsky

Top
#3345225 - 04/17/14 03:22 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Tempest]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Tempest

Could the 25-40% of land that goes into corn ethanol production not be used for something else?


Who is going to decide what they grow. Or if they can use their land to grow.

You?

When government supports your philosophy you like government.
When government doesn't support your philosophy you hate government.

And the world goes round and round.

Top
#3345346 - 04/17/14 08:25 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Tempest]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1111
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Tempest


Could the 25-40% of land that goes into corn ethanol production not be used for something else?
We could likely use the land to grow food that's actually good for us instead of pushing the same stuff they use to fatten cows and pigs on us to lose weight.
_________________________
2013 F150 5.0, PU 10w-30, FL500s
2010 Camry 2.5, PP 5w-30, Wix 57047

Top
Page 7 of 10 < 1 2 ... 5 6 7 8 9 10 >