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#3332017 - 04/03/14 07:44 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 930
Loc: Florida
Not to mention the research that indicate that if there were to actually be global warming, it would be good for us. Too bad we appear to be going into a cooling period. Something about a huge fireball somewhere doing something. Don't know how that'd have any effect on the Earth.
_________________________
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#3332192 - 04/03/14 11:09 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: hatt]
JOD Offline


Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: PNW/WA
Originally Posted By: hatt
Not to mention the research that indicate that if there were to actually be global warming, it would be good for us. Too bad we appear to be going into a cooling period. Something about a huge fireball somewhere doing something. Don't know how that'd have any effect on the Earth.


Of course, absolutely none of the above is actually true, but carry on...

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#3332358 - 04/03/14 01:59 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: hatt]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Chuck, all the baloney about climate change from the UN is just another massive redistribution of wealth project. All we 'rich' nations have to do is send billions of dollars to the corrupt UN and they'll see to it!


We give money to third world countries anyway.


Originally Posted By: hatt
Not to mention the research that indicate that if there were to actually be global warming, it would be good for us. Too bad we appear to be going into a cooling period. Something about a huge fireball somewhere doing something. Don't know how that'd have any effect on the Earth.


This post makes you sound unintelligent. It's a shame because we know that isn't true.

I think a lot of this stuff comes from Rush Limbaugh or other nutty conservative websites. People regurgitate the stuff.



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#3332523 - 04/03/14 04:44 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
I have mixed feelings about the UN and climate change. My point is they feel this program negatively affects food security and the environment. I also think it does very little to replace foreign oil. My question is for what reason are we doing this program? Big oil takes the blame from the corn lobby for most negative press. This clearly has nothing to do with big oil.

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#3332679 - 04/03/14 08:02 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7090
Loc: Saskatoon canada
As far as climate change and the truth I'm not sure I believe all this warming is 100% human caused.
We are but ants in a huge ant hill. For us to truly believe we've got it all figured out is laughable at best.
The fossil record shows that the earth has cycled hot and cold for millions of years. So it's entirely possible the warming trend is just part of that cycle.
Sure we may have sped it up a bit however to think that it's a completely man made condition doesn't fly in my eyes.
Just one mans opinion.

Turt,open minded. Truly absurd. If someone doesn't agree they get called dumb and sworn at.
Yep. I'm open minded and learning but only facts that fit my agenda. Anything else is to be ignored and anyone who feels different is dumb.
Yep. That's open minded alright.
_________________________
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#3332941 - 04/04/14 02:30 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Kiwi_ME Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 651
Loc: New Zealand
We may be ants on an anthill but the fact is we burn fossil fuels at a stupendous rate, equalling about 1/3 of what naturally transitions between the atmosphere and ocean. Not insignificant by any means.

I'm from a different upbringing - my late dad was a well-respected astrophysicist, wrote a ground-breaking paper on cosmic rays in the 1950s, was a contributor to the NASA Voyager missions of the '70s and happen to have presented a few lectures on climate change during retirement. He explained the basics to me and having been exposed to the techniques of science during my seven years at university chasing an engineering degree, I'm entirely confident our scientists are telling it exactly like it is.

In an understated style, scientists describe their findings in words suited for the critical eye of other scientists. It's not neatly marketed and packaged for the general public like a new underarm deodorant. When they say they are 95% sure, you know darn well they are 100% sure but can only reveal the actual statistical confidence level.

As for the Earth's climate changing throughout it's history - sure it did, but that doesn't mean it was good for life forms. Only over many tens of thousands of years has it stabilized sufficiently for life forms to evolve and succeed to what we know today.

It's the greenhouse effect of CO2 and numerous other "greenhouse" gases that are wreaking havoc with the heat balance of the atmosphere. That in turn warms and increases the equilibrium levels of CO2 in the ocean, allowing more CO2 in the atmosphere and continuing the cycle. Stuff in the ground that slowly absorbed CO2 over a hundred-million years has been mined and turned back into CO2 gas in a relative instant. And it's not just the fault of fossil fuels either, it's methane from cows and other rotting vegetation and lack of CO2 absorption due to deforestation. Unfortunately, all mostly due to stuff humans have done to survive and progress.

You might suggest this has happened before due to natural events such as hugh comets hitting the Earth - sure it has, and 10 thousand years later the climate settled down again. Are you willing to wait it out?

For myself, the amazing thing is that the predictions are appearing to becoming true in my lifetime, something I didn't expect. The polar vortex and floods in the UK are all part of the same weather disturbance due to arctic warming, to say nothing of dozens of other unusual weather events. But, it's not statistically significant to scientists until we have seen 30 years of similar data. Are you good with waiting for the final answer, even though anyone with a common sense of self-preservation would run for cover?

You can say "climate change is good for us." It might be ... where I live we will get Mediterranean-like grape-growing weather with occasional droughts. Sounds great! Are you happy with the predictions pertaining to the part of the world where you and your offspring live? One thing for sure, we will all get far more variable weather than we have ever seen before.

After relying on science to bring us the computer to our desks to easily express our views, I have to wonder if people now don't want to believe the science because they think their "toys" will be taken away. Yeah, I don't want to give up my car either but really the true power behind denial comes entirely from oil money, not from any actual "truth." If you are part of that, good luck to you but I'll bet most of you are not.

We all know that like the frog in the slowly-warming water that doesn't realized he's being boiled, nothing will even get done about this. Politicians are only interested in their own careers and yet we blindly vote them in for the short term, then rely on them to guide us for the long term. All we can really do is adapt and that means more conflict and war as we battle over the one resource that is the most difficult to transport, that is - water.

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#3332951 - 04/04/14 03:12 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26308
Loc: a prison island
Too true, since we started this experiment (one in which we are actually living inside the test-tube), we humans, have through our actions materially altered the atmospheric composition of gasses, to a measurable degree.

That fact is inescapable, and not applicable to any other action of any other species or event in history.

When it comes to consequence I'm a partial fence sitter, however believe that we should have a prudent use of finite resources, and if it stays off something big, then all the better.

When the tractors and farm equipment are all run on E100, then I'll believe that it's part of a "solution".

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#3332957 - 04/04/14 03:28 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Kiwi_ME]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
We may be ants on an anthill but the fact is we burn fossil fuels at a stupendous rate, equalling about 1/3 of what naturally transitions between the atmosphere and ocean. Not insignificant by any means.

I'm from a different upbringing - my late dad was a well-respected astrophysicist, wrote a ground-breaking paper on cosmic rays in the 1950s, was a contributor to the NASA Voyager missions of the '70s and happen to have presented a few lectures on climate change during retirement. He explained the basics to me and having been exposed to the techniques of science during my seven years at university chasing an engineering degree, I'm entirely confident our scientists are telling it exactly like it is.

In an understated style, scientists describe their findings in words suited for the critical eye of other scientists. It's not neatly marketed and packaged for the general public like a new underarm deodorant. When they say they are 95% sure, you know darn well they are 100% sure but can only reveal the actual statistical confidence level.

As for the Earth's climate changing throughout it's history - sure it did, but that doesn't mean it was good for life forms. Only over many tens of thousands of years has it stabilized sufficiently for life forms to evolve and succeed to what we know today.

It's the greenhouse effect of CO2 and numerous other "greenhouse" gases that are wreaking havoc with the heat balance of the atmosphere. That in turn warms and increases the equilibrium levels of CO2 in the ocean, allowing more CO2 in the atmosphere and continuing the cycle. Stuff in the ground that slowly absorbed CO2 over a hundred-million years has been mined and turned back into CO2 gas in a relative instant. And it's not just the fault of fossil fuels either, it's methane from cows and other rotting vegetation and lack of CO2 absorption due to deforestation. Unfortunately, all mostly due to stuff humans have done to survive and progress.

You might suggest this has happened before due to natural events such as hugh comets hitting the Earth - sure it has, and 10 thousand years later the climate settled down again. Are you willing to wait it out?

For myself, the amazing thing is that the predictions are appearing to becoming true in my lifetime, something I didn't expect. The polar vortex and floods in the UK are all part of the same weather disturbance due to arctic warming, to say nothing of dozens of other unusual weather events. But, it's not statistically significant to scientists until we have seen 30 years of similar data. Are you good with waiting for the final answer, even though anyone with a common sense of self-preservation would run for cover?

You can say "climate change is good for us." It might be ... where I live we will get Mediterranean-like grape-growing weather with occasional droughts. Sounds great! Are you happy with the predictions pertaining to the part of the world where you and your offspring live? One thing for sure, we will all get far more variable weather than we have ever seen before.

After relying on science to bring us the computer to our desks to easily express our views, I have to wonder if people now don't want to believe the science because they think their "toys" will be taken away. Yeah, I don't want to give up my car either but really the true power behind denial comes entirely from oil money, not from any actual "truth." If you are part of that, good luck to you but I'll bet most of you are not.

We all know that like the frog in the slowly-warming water that doesn't realized he's being boiled, nothing will even get done about this. Politicians are only interested in their own careers and yet we blindly vote them in for the short term, then rely on them to guide us for the long term. All we can really do is adapt and that means more conflict and war as we battle over the one resource that is the most difficult to transport, that is - water.


Best post I've ever read on BITOG.

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#3333097 - 04/04/14 08:32 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: JOD]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 930
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: hatt
Not to mention the research that indicate that if there were to actually be global warming, it would be good for us. Too bad we appear to be going into a cooling period. Something about a huge fireball somewhere doing something. Don't know how that'd have any effect on the Earth.


Of course, absolutely none of the above is actually true, but carry on...

Which part? The Sun having an effect on Earth's climate? Warm periods good for humans?

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/331/6017/578.abstract
http://www.stanford.edu/~moore/Boon_To_Man.html


Edited by hatt (04/04/14 08:37 AM)
_________________________
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2010 Camry 2.5, PP 5w-30, Wix 57047

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#3333099 - 04/04/14 08:33 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1648
Loc: Illinois
Warm periods good for humans? Maybe when we were nomadic tribes. Turn the Midwest into deserts and see how good for humans it is.

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#3333111 - 04/04/14 08:44 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SHOZ]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 930
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Warm periods good for humans? Maybe when we were nomadic tribes. Turn the Midwest into deserts and see how good for humans it is.

Why would the Midwest turn to desert? Is the warming going to cause a new mountain range to form cutting off moisture to the region? Temperature has no bearing on whether a place is a desert or not. Warmer temp will absolutely open up additional area that were previously to cold to agriculture.
_________________________
2013 F150 5.0, PU 10w-30, FL500s
2010 Camry 2.5, PP 5w-30, Wix 57047

Top
#3333112 - 04/04/14 08:47 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1648
Loc: Illinois
No it shifts the jet stream north. The corn belt in the Midwest depends on summer thunderstorms that ride on the south edge of the jet stream.

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#3333998 - 04/05/14 10:20 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SteveSRT8]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Steve part of the reason I injected the climate change issue is the democrats seem to be committed to protecting the environment and this program does nothing but hurt the environment. I think this angle has the best chance to get this mandate thrown out. The other being corn lobbyist like to blame all their criticism on big oil and the UN has nothing to do with big oil.

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#3334003 - 04/05/14 10:27 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1648
Loc: Illinois
Ethanol has devolved into a massive job and farm subsidy without directly coming from the Agriculture Department.

Each plant also uses over a million gallons a day of water. They were going to put one up in my county but this nixed that idea. Too many farmers and others depend on a stable water table.

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#3334004 - 04/05/14 10:29 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: hatt]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1648
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Warm periods good for humans? Maybe when we were nomadic tribes. Turn the Midwest into deserts and see how good for humans it is.

Why would the Midwest turn to desert? Is the warming going to cause a new mountain range to form cutting off moisture to the region? Temperature has no bearing on whether a place is a desert or not. Warmer temp will absolutely open up additional area that were previously to cold to agriculture.


Here is where the most food is grown in the world. Well not actually food anymore. frown



Fluorescence Reveals the Incredible Productivity of America’s Corn Belt

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