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#3322657 - 03/25/14 01:04 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7437
Loc: Saskatoon canada
In a perfect world we'd have solar powered flying vehicles or we'd be able to bend space and time to travel however we aren't there yet so we gotta do the best with what we've got,which means oil.
I still don't understand how ethanol pollutes less when more is required to be burned when compared to gasoline.
Until we have engines that run at 99.99 efficiency we have to to the best with what we've got.
No oil isn't perfect,in fact it sucks but its all we've got as far as cheap and attainable.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3322661 - 03/25/14 01:19 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Clevy]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Clevy
we gotta do the best with what we've got,which means oil.


The big oil guys have to slow down and do it right. If it means paying more, so be it. We can't continue to dump [censored] where we live.

I'm glad BP got rid of that snot nosed punk CEO. There's a culture of cutting corners.

I interviewed with Schlumberger many years ago. They wanted their engineers to work 30-40 hours straight. I actually went out on a rig 100 miles out and worked a job for the interview. I couldn't stay awake that long. I think some of these guys pop pills to get the job done.

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#3322714 - 03/25/14 06:42 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1038
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
Tiredtrucker I know your pretty good at massaging numbers, I work mainly on numbers posted in articles on the internet. You also multiple times have stated you don't believe in a mandate. Your attitude tells me that's not really true. The corn lobby should do their work in front of the consumer. Do away with the mandate and allow the consumer to have their choice. Since this program began food prices have risen by over $2000 per year for a family of four. Flex vehicles on average cost around 20% more to use E85 verses gasoline. That easily explains why less than 4% of flex owners chose to use it. It also tells us ethanol cost more to use overall. Others have stated there is money given to blenders to mix ethanol. Corn prices might be low now, but when it was high recently it forced the livestock industry to reduce its size to less than 1952 levels and the consumer is paying for it now. The amount of idle land that has gone back into production tells the story and the environmental impact is large. In this administrations 2015 budget they have 200 million subsidizing the alternative fuel industry. Is that to make ethanol appear cheaper?


Many assume it is the "corn lobby", whatever that means, that is behind mandates. Every time I have seen mandates on ethanol, MTBE, or whatever the oxygenate du jour is, it always seems to be EPA or local inspired. LA or even CARB for that matter is hardly swayed by any lobby in what they do, let alone a bunch of hay seeds from Iowa trying to convince them to do something. This is why fuel vary so much in price across the country. You have a myriad of local and state mandates on fuel makeup, usually inspired by EPA air quality regulations, and that is the primary motivation to these mandates. Whenever I read anything put out by the renewable fuels people in my area, it seems to be centered around regulatory issues on them and not on everyone else, and promoting some blenders tax credit or something. I have never read in 30 years any "corn lobby" internal publication that goes around stating that they are promoting a mandate on consumers. It may benefit them to have a mandate, obviously, but that has not been their prime focus. Just trying to make a profit without drowning in regulatory nonsense seems to be their prime concern.

There is NO SUBSIDIES to the ethanol industry and hasn't been for at least 2 years!!!! The "corn lobby" was behind the removal of ethanol subsidies. Mainly because of the abuse by external sources of ethanol coming into the country. A subsidy is a direct payout to an entity. Now, there may be some tax credits, but that is not a subsidy. If you think tax credits are bad, then give up your mortgage interest deduction, you child and dependent care tax credit, etc, etc, etc. Many want to throw a fit over a business getting a tax break, but God forbid they give up their own. And there is not a single business in America that doesn't benefit from some form of tax credit or tax avoidance. It is the way the code is set up. I was able to avoid the 12% Federal Excise Tax on new equipment (saving roughly $15,000) by taking advantage of both EPA and IRS regulations. I purchased a 2013 Freightliner Semi truck, without a engine, and dropped in a rebuilt engine and rebuilt transmission. By doing that, I avoided the EPA smog junk on the engine, by using two major rebuilt components, I avoided the Federal Excise Tax on new equipment. OMG! How terrible! A business got to a tax break! Yeah, you bet! And I drove away smiling like a mule eating burrs.

And many blame food prices going up on the corn ethanol gig. Do any of you actually take the time see how the U.S. corn crop is divided up or how the value of the dollar has tanked in the last decade? Of the entire U.S. Number 2 Field Corn crop in the U.S. each year, roughly 20% goes to any kind of human consumption. Of the 80% left, only 40% of that goes toward ethanol production and most of the that corn is also developed into high protein livestock feed supplements and other products AFTER the ethanol cycle. The value of the dollar has dropped roughly 28% in the last 10 years. That actually equates on a 1 for 1 basis with average food price rises. Meats? There is a substantially lower herd level in both beef and pork in the U.S., so the market price has gone up substantially. Cannot be because of corn ethanol, because the corn price today is almost the same as it was 20 years ago. And true, the meat industry cut back herds due to input costs. Hey, what business doesn't? And now the market is such that they are now increasing the herds again. It is called a business cycle. It is called minimizing liabilities and increasing profits. No one forced the livestock folks to decrease the herds. And demand is what drives up the price. You have a larger world wide demand for meats, especially coming from China. Did you forget that aspect to your analysis?

And any mandates for ethanol in fuels is not going to change one thing on corn ethanol. That source of ethanol is capped at 14 billion gallons per year. Last year, 13.7 billion gallons were produced here. That essentially means that they are at the peak they can make corn ethanol. Mandates by government may increase, but the ethanol will have to be made from other sources like biomass, cellulosic, or NG. But, hey, lets all blame the "corn lobby". They make a convenient fall guy. After all, no one in local, state, or federal government is to blame, right?
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3323378 - 03/25/14 04:48 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: TiredTrucker]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Tiredtrucker this program was to wean us from foreign oil. It was to be a clean renewable energy good for the environment. You have had over five years to convince the consumer what the benefits are. Its time to cut the reign and let the consumer respond to your product. I know you believe corn ethanol has the qualities where it doesn't need to live on a mandate. How much oil does this program actually replace? When we as a country are on the verge of exporting oil this program needs to be reworked at best. This administration as concerned as they are about climate change how could they allow this destruction to the environment to happen?

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#3328437 - 03/30/14 06:29 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: turtlevette]
dave1251 Offline


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 7246
Loc: Maricopa, AZ
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
We can't continue to dump [censored] where we live.


What do you purpose to do with the Oil Seeps in the Gulf of Mexico then? Or in Santa Barbara were 20-25 tons of oil leaks from the sea floor everyday and has for thousands of years?.
_________________________
make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
don't use.

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#3328478 - 03/30/14 07:13 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: dave1251]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1112
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: dave1251


What do you purpose to do with the Oil Seeps in the Gulf of Mexico then? Or in Santa Barbara were 20-25 tons of oil leaks from the sea floor everyday and has for thousands of years?.
You can't do anything with the militant enviro folks. Around here phosphate mines were the worst thing ever. Now every old mine is a beautiful park with great fishing. The Earth does not care about humans.
_________________________
2013 F150 5.0, PU 10w-30, FL500s
2010 Camry 2.5, PP 5w-30, Wix 57047

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#3328619 - 03/30/14 09:52 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: hatt]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
It's hard to convince a grumpy old man of anything or change their minds. Their minds are already made up and will be to death.

Dumb [censored] reasoning:

It's OK to pollute the Earth, because the Earth is already polluting itself.
It's Ok not to care about the Earth, because the Earth does not care about humans.

Dumb

What enviro militant do you know that owns the vehicles below?
_________________________
08 Mustang 4.0 GC
02 Suburban 5.3 M1 0w-30 AFE
75 Corvette Val 0W-20 syn
79 Trans Am M1 TDT
84 Suburban Castrol Edge Ti 5W-20 syn

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#3328790 - 03/31/14 06:08 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15181
Loc: Sunny Florida
Al Gore is looking for help!

Once again he resorts to name calling. God Gawd are we in grade school?
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3329181 - 03/31/14 01:35 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SteveSRT8]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
You see yourself in that statement?

It's something I never want to happen to me. If I get to be 90 I want to be open minded and think young.

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#3329374 - 03/31/14 04:43 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: turtlevette]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15181
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
You see yourself in that statement?

It's something I never want to happen to me. If I get to be 90 I want to be open minded and think young.


There is definitely one thing you are NOT and that is open minded. That was funny. Go back and read your reactions to anyone who dares question your progressive mind.

Save your breath with the inflammatory comments, I've been here a while. It only hurts your credibility, which is getting lower by the minute with every bout of name calling.

Or keep it going. It adds entertainment value for some...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3329474 - 03/31/14 06:21 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SteveSRT8]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Today Emily Cassidy, EWG biofuels research analyst for the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change said: " Risk to food security is only going to get worse, with water shortages and temperature changes. The UN Panels findings should alert U.S. policymakers that mandating corn ethanol threatens food security, intensifies completion for land and water and fails to reduce greenhouse gas emissions". Do you think this administration can look past the political promises they have made and do away with this mandate? They repeatedly have made statements that they are committed to slowing climate change.

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#3331136 - 04/02/14 08:05 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
dlundblad Offline


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 1839
Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
Today Emily Cassidy, EWG biofuels research analyst for the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change said: " Risk to food security is only going to get worse, with water shortages and temperature changes. The UN Panels findings should alert U.S. policymakers that mandating corn ethanol threatens food security, intensifies completion for land and water and fails to reduce greenhouse gas emissions". Do you think this administration can look past the political promises they have made and do away with this mandate? They repeatedly have made statements that they are committed to slowing climate change.


Any research done on climate change is a waste or time and money. Remember that ship that got stuck in all the ice? I'm glad they were able to find what they were looking for. Lol.

This is just a suggestion that isn't backed by any evidence, but it makes you wonder: If they are so worried about greenhouse gasses, wouldn't they want to produce less corn? Diesel machinery used to plant, pick and transport puts off many more carbon footprints than all the gas guzzlers on the road IMO.

From what I can see locally, they can cut back on corn growth without having a negative affect on the food supply. The new ethanol plant here has made corn growth increase dramatically.. and farmers seem to be bummed when fuel prices are down. Go figure.
_________________________
2003 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0
PYB 10w30/ Mopar Mo-090


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#3331506 - 04/02/14 03:15 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: dave1251]
JOD Offline


Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 3145
Loc: PNW/WA
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
We can't continue to dump [censored] where we live.


What do you purpose to do with the Oil Seeps in the Gulf of Mexico then? Or in Santa Barbara were 20-25 tons of oil leaks from the sea floor everyday and has for thousands of years?.


I don't know, but I sure wish someone would fix it! My dog absolutely hates the tar that gets washed up when it gets stuck to his paws--very unpleasant!!

Seriously though, I never really understood the line of reasoning that states that just because something occurs naturally, it means it's OK to produce it exponentially. It just doesn't make much sense to me...

As far as corn-based ethanol, this isn't a partisan issue, it's a money issue. Pretty much everyone who's not making money from it has agreed that it's an idea whose time has past. We'll see whether anything gets done about it anytime soon.

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#3331662 - 04/02/14 06:51 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1808
Loc: Illinois
There is still a $.45 per gallon of ethanol used federal subsidy when the fuel is blended. Around me it is done at the fuel depots as the fuel is added to the individual tankers.

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#3331976 - 04/03/14 05:46 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15181
Loc: Sunny Florida
Chuck, all the baloney about climate change from the UN is just another massive redistribution of wealth project. All we 'rich' nations have to do is send billions of dollars to the corrupt UN and they'll see to it!
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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