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#2886161 - 01/27/13 07:28 PM Another Look at Ethanol
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14472
Loc: Midwest
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#2886164 - 01/27/13 07:32 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
RiceCake Offline


Registered: 09/22/12
Posts: 1044
Loc: Coldtown, Canada
What I would like to see is hydrogen worked on, versus a fuel that essentially has no ability to develop anywhere beyond "grow more".

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#2886167 - 01/27/13 07:39 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
jimbrewer Offline


Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 842
Loc: New Mexico, USA
Personally, I think its immoral to burn food in the gas tank of a car. There are some areas where its a legal requirement, because of the oxygenation feature.

I found the puregas.org site on the web and found out there's a no ethanol pump in my town. I'm not ashamed to say I try and finagle a a reason to be in that neighborhood so as to gas up there if I possibly can. Car has more zip and gets maybe 1 mpg better mileage with the no ethanol. Its also premium, but I don't know if that makes a difference.

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#2886174 - 01/27/13 07:43 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: jimbrewer]
Danno Offline


Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 753
Loc: Northern Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: jimbrewer
Its also premium, but I don't know if that makes a difference.

What are you driving?

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#2886177 - 01/27/13 07:45 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: RiceCake]
Danno Offline


Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 753
Loc: Northern Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
What I would like to see is hydrogen worked on, versus a fuel that essentially has no ability to develop anywhere beyond "grow more".


The achilles heel for hydrogen is the amount of energy needed to convert water to hydrogen. When the input power exceeds the output, it is always a losing proposition.

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#2886201 - 01/27/13 08:15 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: jimbrewer]
Donald Offline


Registered: 03/21/04
Posts: 13421
Loc: Upstate NY
Originally Posted By: jimbrewer
Personally, I think its immoral to burn food in the gas tank of a car. There are some areas where its a legal requirement, because of the oxygenation feature.

I found the puregas.org site on the web and found out there's a no ethanol pump in my town. I'm not ashamed to say I try and finagle a a reason to be in that neighborhood so as to gas up there if I possibly can. Car has more zip and gets maybe 1 mpg better mileage with the no ethanol. Its also premium, but I don't know if that makes a difference.


There is a whole list of chemicals that can be used as oxygenators.
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#2886203 - 01/27/13 08:16 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Danno]
Nyquist Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 913
Loc: Iowa
I agree that corn-based ethanol is probably an idea that does more harm that good, but I think it is temporary now. In the future I see companies developing a more efficient means of producing ethanol using various types of algaes.
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#2886212 - 01/27/13 08:24 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Panzerman Offline


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 2482
Loc: Daytona, Florida
Its a perfect example of un-informed enviromentalist causing exactly the opposite of their intentions. Your car uses more gas, you use more water to make ethanol and it does more harm then good. Plus, the cost. The only place you can find non-ethanol in Florida is at Marinas and you pay out the Ying yang, but its still better than the agrevation of dealing with it in smalll engines. Now I wish they would clear cut all the dead trees down here, instead of being a "Save Old Florida" kick. Old trees use more oxygen then they make, again un-informed and hard headed enviro-nuts.

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#2886266 - 01/27/13 09:07 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Danno]
RiceCake Offline


Registered: 09/22/12
Posts: 1044
Loc: Coldtown, Canada
Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
What I would like to see is hydrogen worked on, versus a fuel that essentially has no ability to develop anywhere beyond "grow more".


The achilles heel for hydrogen is the amount of energy needed to convert water to hydrogen. When the input power exceeds the output, it is always a losing proposition.


Not really. No matter what you're gonna lose some in the conversion. The benefit of hydrogen however is you can get energy from completely renewable sources, like solar or hydroelectric, you can burn it in a piston engine or a fuel cell, and the exhaust is water vapour.

The main issue right now, besides storing hydrogen, is of course using fossil fuels or nuclear to generate it...which obviously combined with inefficiencies means its a pretty stupid idea.

But it has a future, somewhere. That or batteries if we can make them from something other then tons of nickle and other polluting industries, make them charge faster, and make them last more then a few brief years...

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#2886775 - 01/28/13 11:40 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Nyquist]
Kestas Offline



Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 10805
Loc: The Motor City
Originally Posted By: Nyquist
I agree that corn-based ethanol is probably an idea that does more harm that good, but I think it is temporary now. In the future I see companies developing a more efficient means of producing ethanol using various types of algaes.

They've been making vehicle fuel this way for at leaast four decades. This is more than temporary. It's a clear indication of the stranglehold special interests have on the public. The move away from corn could have and should have happened a long time ago.

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#2886894 - 01/28/13 01:18 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Danno]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14717
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
What I would like to see is hydrogen worked on, versus a fuel that essentially has no ability to develop anywhere beyond "grow more".


The achilles heel for hydrogen is the amount of energy needed to convert water to hydrogen. When the input power exceeds the output, it is always a losing proposition.


Then you better not study the production of ethanol for automobiles!!!!
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#2886895 - 01/28/13 01:20 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Panzerman]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14717
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Its a perfect example of un-informed enviromentalist causing exactly the opposite of their intentions. Your car uses more gas, you use more water to make ethanol and it does more harm then good. Plus, the cost. The only place you can find non-ethanol in Florida is at Marinas and you pay out the Ying yang, but its still better than the agrevation of dealing with it in smalll engines. Now I wish they would clear cut all the dead trees down here, instead of being a "Save Old Florida" kick. Old trees use more oxygen then they make, again un-informed and hard headed enviro-nuts.



Please do not confuse the corn lobbyists with the environmentalists. The greenies simply helped, it was the corn lobby that did the heavy lifting here...
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#2887676 - 01/29/13 03:09 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26465
Loc: a prison island
The corn lobby is an indescribable evil, and have co-opted the greenies in supporting the unsupportable grain ethanol business.

They argue that feedlotting is efficient (same amount of land would raise many more cattle without a middleman, and have a far better health outcome for beef eaters...and vut out a lot of enviro arguments against meat).

They argue that the grains aren't suitable for human consumption anyway (but the land could be used for food grains or other stuff if it weren't for ethanol).

They take your tax money, and keep other renewables out of the scene.

If the grain/ethanol lobby were honest and serious, they'd run their farm equipment and transport on it...and we'd watch them disappear up their own fundamental orifice.

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#2888070 - 01/29/13 01:17 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Tempest Offline


Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 10448
Loc: Las Vegas NV
From the article:
Quote:
According to the Center for Responsive Politics, agri-firm ADM has contributed $10.46 million to politicians and spent $8.94 million on lobbying since 1990.


$45 billion in subsidies since 1980.
http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/201...l-subsidies.php


That's a VERY good return on investment. You can't get that kind of return on the open market.
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#2888130 - 01/29/13 02:18 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14717
Loc: Sunny Florida
Outstanding ROI. Lobbying Congress should be outlawed or at least heavily regulated.

Congressman are too cheap!
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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