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#2867269 - 01/11/13 09:00 PM Re: NEO 0w5 Racing Synthetic, 25K, VW Golf 1.9TDI, ALH [Re: skyship]
gathermewool Offline


Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 3618
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
The bypass application is always better than non-bypass, but to compare two different vehicles with bypasses with different driving history is iffy at best.


Unfortunately, I can't search easily from my phone, but was curious about your bypass setup. Did you install it yourself, and if so, how complicated was the install? Do you have any pics or a link to your DIY?


It's a pity we can't see results from the light oil use without a bypass filter in use, as I suspect it will make a big difference in terms of engine protection. Mixing oil in the fuel is also interesting.
It would be good to see what the new oil could do on its own without extra oil in the fuel and bypass filtration. The German VW chaps were using a straight 10 grade, but had no bypass filter and just an anti ice additive in the fuel. Their speed for the test was 100 kmph, which is the same as the trucks, as going any slower could cause an issue with the Police on the autobahn and is about right for the TDI in fuel economy terms.


I agree, which is why I think monitoring oil temperature/pressure is very important.

The German VW "chaps," do you know the viscosity of the oil they were using in cSt? I wonder if maybe their 10W was thicker than advertised, too.

I've actually been meaning to join or at least lurk around on the tdi forums. It seems like they have such a neat community with a lot of knowledgeable people. I'd love to pick up a high mileage (by most people's standards, not the TDI crowd :P ) and play around with it. I don't see many in the hobby shop, but one guy came in a few years ago and I just stood by when I was finished with my project and shot the breeze with him for maybe an hour. If I knew much about his Jetta TDI it might have been longer, but I didn't, so it was mostly him talking.
_________________________
14 Forester XT
GC 0W-30 + Subie blue filter
08 Civic LX (Auto)
VWB 5W-20 + Fram Ultra Guard filter

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#2867529 - 01/12/13 05:46 AM Re: NEO 0w5 Racing Synthetic, 25K, VW Golf 1.9TDI, ALH [Re: gathermewool]
skyship Offline


Registered: 06/09/12
Posts: 2071
Loc: Tettnang, Baden-Wurttemberg, G...
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
The bypass application is always better than non-bypass, but to compare two different vehicles with bypasses with different driving history is iffy at best.


Unfortunately, I can't search easily from my phone, but was curious about your bypass setup. Did you install it yourself, and if so, how complicated was the install? Do you have any pics or a link to your DIY?


It's a pity we can't see results from the light oil use without a bypass filter in use, as I suspect it will make a big difference in terms of engine protection. Mixing oil in the fuel is also interesting.
It would be good to see what the new oil could do on its own without extra oil in the fuel and bypass filtration. The German VW chaps were using a straight 10 grade, but had no bypass filter and just an anti ice additive in the fuel. Their speed for the test was 100 kmph, which is the same as the trucks, as going any slower could cause an issue with the Police on the autobahn and is about right for the TDI in fuel economy terms.


I agree, which is why I think monitoring oil temperature/pressure is very important.

The German VW "chaps," do you know the viscosity of the oil they were using in cSt? I wonder if maybe their 10W was thicker than advertised, too.

I've actually been meaning to join or at least lurk around on the tdi forums. It seems like they have such a neat community with a lot of knowledgeable people. I'd love to pick up a high mileage (by most people's standards, not the TDI crowd :P ) and play around with it. I don't see many in the hobby shop, but one guy came in a few years ago and I just stood by when I was finished with my project and shot the breeze with him for maybe an hour. If I knew much about his Jetta TDI it might have been longer, but I didn't, so it was mostly him talking.


One of them had Castrol stickers over his VW and I presume he is using one of the Castrol formula one race oils, but no idea on which one.

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#2869945 - 01/13/13 10:59 PM Re: NEO 0w5 Racing Synthetic, 25K, VW Golf 1.9TDI, ALH [Re: azsynthetic]
addyguy Offline


Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 13429
Loc: Canada
I know I am way, way late to this discussion, but folks here DO know that NEO used lead napthenate(?) as an AW additive in their oils, right?

The lead is NOT all engine wear, its a very, very old-school AW additive from the 1970's...we've seen a couple of NEO UOA/VOA's that confirm this.

If you need clarification, search for member 'spiderbypass' and the tests he did on NEO in his accord.
_________________________
2003 Mazda Tribute LX V-6, 172k miles.
Oil: QS Defy 5W-20; Fram Ultra XG2 filter.

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#2869946 - 01/13/13 11:01 PM Re: NEO 0w5 Racing Synthetic, 25K, VW Golf 1.9TDI, ALH [Re: azsynthetic]
addyguy Offline


Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 13429
Loc: Canada
_________________________
2003 Mazda Tribute LX V-6, 172k miles.
Oil: QS Defy 5W-20; Fram Ultra XG2 filter.

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#2872466 - 01/15/13 10:09 PM Re: NEO 0w5 Racing Synthetic, 25K, VW Golf 1.9TDI, ALH [Re: azsynthetic]
Brons2 Offline


Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 2484
Loc: Austin, Texas
I think TGMO 0w20 would be even thinner.

But maybe not provide the ZDDP levels that the OP is looking for? Still, if looking for the absolute thinnest oil, maybe a consideration?
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Mine: 2007 Kia Rondo LX 2.4 I4 5 pass, MC5K 5w20, OEM filter
Hers: 2010 Rav4 Sport 2.5 I4, M1 5w20, OEM filter

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#2879567 - 01/21/13 08:47 PM Re: NEO 0w5 Racing Synthetic, 25K, VW Golf 1.9TDI, ALH [Re: azsynthetic]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14659
Loc: Midwest
Quote:
The oil has a very interesting VOA, as I've not seen Lead used as an additive before, so I wonder what that is doing in terms of lining the cylinder walls or something.


NEO has always been an interesting oil. At one time they used mostly diesters as base oils, but due to high diester costs, I doubt they use diesters exclusively now, but mix it with other oils such as PAO's and POE's.

I do know they have used a lead additive in the past such as Lead dithiocarbamate which is one of those anti-wear and anti-oxidant agents.

I too would be concerend about the lead deposits coating any cats or other after treatment devices.

The VOA of AZ's NEO does fall into the SAE 20 weight range at 7.5 cSt.

According to their current website, the lowest viscosity oil they now produce is a 5W20.

It would be interesting to see what their current 5W20 oil contains.



Edited by MolaKule (01/21/13 08:51 PM)
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#2879887 - 01/22/13 07:18 AM Re: NEO 0w5 Racing Synthetic, 25K, VW Golf 1.9TDI, ALH [Re: azsynthetic]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4477
Loc: NW Ohio
I think this was a fascinating experiment and have waited to see this UOA. I guess the test is going to be ongoing, so we will see more up ahead. It certainly stretches the concept of using light oils into new territory... for me anyway.

I have see numerous instances of straight 20 grade being used in diesels of the distant past for winter. You will find many Nebraska tractor tests of '50s and '60s tractors with straight 20 grade. When I look at the dates of some of the tests, they sometimes fall outside of the time period we normally call "winter" (though it is Nebraska after all) but I have sometimes wondered if the mfrs didn't run 20 grade so their engine would read higher on the hp rating (generally PTO hp) at the expense of some extra engine wear short term (the test usually ran them 20-40 hours total, though often very hard).

I can see the lower viscosity and syn base really helping with fuel economy, since it's fully two grades below the recommended, but the very low wear numbers from such a long run are a bit more puzzling on the surface to me.

I would wonder if the bypass system isn't catching some of it? I have read that filtration in the 1-2 um range can make UOA metals read lower because the filter is catching a higher percentage of those smaller particles read by the spectrograph. I don't know at what level the Amsoil bypass filters in this case, so I might be off target here, but the proof of the pudding would be to have the bypass filter contents analyzed. Or the engine torn down and wear actually measured. Still, given this engine has nearly 250K miles on it, and at least 50K of that on what are essentially 20 grade oils, the wear can't be excessive or the engine would have long since been in the scrap pile.
_________________________
Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive

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#2880790 - 01/22/13 07:57 PM Re: NEO 0w5 Racing Synthetic, 25K, VW Golf 1.9TDI, ALH [Re: Jim Allen]
azsynthetic Offline


Registered: 06/01/07
Posts: 1221
Loc: Phoenix AZ
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Still, given this engine has nearly 250K miles on it, and at least 50K of that on what are essentially 20 grade oils, the wear can't be excessive or the engine would have long since been in the scrap pile.


Engine is now over 280K miles and I just added 12oz of ZMAX to the oil. It is not conclusive yet but the first tank with ZMAX got me a little over 1 mpg extra. If nothing serious happens mechanically I will run this OCI to 35K, maybe 40K. I also planned on using either Red Line 5WT or 10WT race oil as part of the makeup oil.

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#2883871 - 01/25/13 03:04 PM Re: NEO 0w5 Racing Synthetic, 25K, VW Golf 1.9TDI, ALH [Re: azsynthetic]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7437
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Awesome experiment.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#2884626 - 01/26/13 10:15 AM Re: NEO 0w5 Racing Synthetic, 25K, VW Golf 1.9TDI, ALH [Re: azsynthetic]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14659
Loc: Midwest
Quote:
Engine is now over 280K miles and I just added 12oz of ZMAX to the oil. It is not conclusive yet but the first tank with ZMAX got me a little over 1 mpg extra. If nothing serious happens mechanically I will run this OCI to 35K, maybe 40K. I also planned on using either Red Line 5WT or 10WT race oil as part of the makeup oil.


You are introducing so many variables I don't see how you deduce any consistent cause and effect relationships.
_________________________
Blessed are those who walk away from you for they are making room for those who won't. smile

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#2884676 - 01/26/13 10:53 AM Re: NEO 0w5 Racing Synthetic, 25K, VW Golf 1.9TDI, ALH [Re: azsynthetic]
azsynthetic Offline


Registered: 06/01/07
Posts: 1221
Loc: Phoenix AZ
Cause and effect for what? I ran 25K without ZMAX and now I am running ZMAX for the next 10K, then use Red Line race oil for 10k after that, and so on and so on. All I care about is minimum fuel burn so what can't you see?

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#2885031 - 01/26/13 05:56 PM Re: NEO 0w5 Racing Synthetic, 25K, VW Golf 1.9TDI, ALH [Re: azsynthetic]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14659
Loc: Midwest
Quote:
All I care about is minimum fuel burn so what can't you see?


I see your goal is minimum fuel burn, but you stated you're using a NEO 20W, then added Zmax, then you are going to top off with other brands with different additve packages and different viscosities so my question is, how can you attribute mpg increases to any one variable if you acumulate so many variables along the way?


Edited by MolaKule (01/26/13 06:01 PM)
_________________________
Blessed are those who walk away from you for they are making room for those who won't. smile

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#2885285 - 01/27/13 02:02 AM Re: NEO 0w5 Racing Synthetic, 25K, VW Golf 1.9TDI, ALH [Re: azsynthetic]
azsynthetic Offline


Registered: 06/01/07
Posts: 1221
Loc: Phoenix AZ
I change one variable at a time for at least 10K miles. Any change in fuel burn should be easily calculated.

I already ran the NEO for 25K as a baseline. Now I am adding ZMAX to the oil for the next 10K. Very easy experiment to calculate fuel burn. What can't you see?

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#2885288 - 01/27/13 02:09 AM Re: NEO 0w5 Racing Synthetic, 25K, VW Golf 1.9TDI, ALH [Re: MolaKule]
azsynthetic Offline


Registered: 06/01/07
Posts: 1221
Loc: Phoenix AZ
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
you stated you're using a NEO 20W,


I ran NEO 0w5 as stated on the product. What it is is another matter but I have never run NEO 20W.

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#2885619 - 01/27/13 11:52 AM Re: NEO 0w5 Racing Synthetic, 25K, VW Golf 1.9TDI, ALH [Re: azsynthetic]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14659
Loc: Midwest
Quote:
I also planned on using either Red Line 5WT or 10WT race oil as part of the makeup oil.


By this statement you are going to run the NEO low vis with Zmax, and then topoff with Red Line 5WT or 10WT race oil due to consumption along the way?

So eventually, you will have a mix of NEO low vis, Zmax, and some Redline low vis racing oil in the UOA analysis.
_________________________
Blessed are those who walk away from you for they are making room for those who won't. smile

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