Acea E7 / API CI4 and A3/B4 spec?

[WBoer]

Hello,

There are many heavy duty oils (acea E7/API CI4) available in Europe with the a3/b3/b4 specification, is this is a new formulation? And why?
Never seen this before...

Like this:

http://www.kroon-oil.com/en/products/cat...-specificaties/

More than 2 times cheaper than a synthetic 5W40, and it's a specific diesel engine oil for high powered diesel engines.

But should it perform better in an engine requiring Acea B3/B4 in a mild climate?

 

[bigjl]

"E" oils are HDEO for trucks and buses.

Though if the vehicle you have is a diesel sometimes the APi specs are listed in there for you to compare.

The CI 4 spec is listed in the handbook for my Taxi and it relates to some Delvac products and I think some Shell Rimula R6 oils.

I have been thinking about getting HDEO.

This is the first time an oil manufacturer has spent the time the time to actually cross reference the E specs with the B3/B4 specs.

 

[WBoer]

I know the E oils are heavy duty for trucks.

There a many other brands here that have fleet oil 15W40 wih A3/B3/B4 specification together with truck specs CI4, E7/E9, Volvo VDS 3, MB 228.3 etc.

Delvac and Rimula R6 are synthetic and much more expensive, but proberly better, but no B3/B4...

I use this 15W40 in my Iveco van, but I have two diesel cars requiring ACEA B3 and B4.

 

[bigjl]

It isn't that Delvac and Rimula don't meet B3/B4 but that the oil manufacturer has not cross referenced the specs to see which more run of the mill specs are also met.

 

[WBoer]

Yes, that is probarly true.

I had spoken to the technical service from Shell, but he recommend not to use R6 (LM) low saps in a diesel car because the oil was not disigned for high speed diesel engines.
Always stick to the manufacturer specifications! So he said.

 

[Rollins]

Originally Posted By: WBoer
... oil was not disigned for high speed diesel engines.
Always stick to the manufacturer specifications! So he said.


Words of wisdom,indeed...but since Rimula R6 LME is MB 228.51 certified, it can be used in numerous passenger and light duty Mercedes-Benz vehicles too...heh.

http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/downloadf.php?filename=en/Spec_223_2.pdf

Never thought om611 or om646 were low-speed...

Whether a SHPD oil is or isn't certified against a passenger-car category is often due to marketing considerations...or failing to meet some lab chemical limit(% sulfur or chlorine come to mind first...).

D1 was ACEA B4 certified in its CH-4 version
http://www.imperialoil.ca/Canada-English/Files/Products_Lubes/IOCAENCVLESMobil_1_Delvac_1.pdf

...and is still API SL-approved in its CI-4+ version.

Anyway, using a mixed-fleet SHPD oil having the necessary OEM approval in a PC that demands this very approval(moreover,of the same viscosity and base oil group!!!) is often considered as kinda heretical...go figure...

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: bigjl
This is the first time an oil manufacturer has spent the time the time to actually cross reference the E specs with the B3/B4 specs.


We certainly don't see a lot of cross referencing with other ACEA specs here, either. I have seen a number of E speced HDEOs, but never with gasoline type ACEA specs, although one can make some reasonable estimates.

@Rollins: The older Delvac 1 is very difficult, if not impossible, to get here. Imperial Oil has gotten rid of most HDEOs that aren't CJ-4, and the local Imperial Oil distributor stated specifically he could only get Delvac 1 ESP, and that was at least three years ago or so already.

 

[bigjl]

Luckily the distributer in Southampton still has the CI 4 Delvac product XHP LE 10w40, not a Delvac 1 product so second tier I think.

Still a strong oil I would think.

They also do Delvac 1 LE 5w30 which is both MB 228-5 and 228-51 compatible and DPF compatible.

Does anybody know how the 228.5 and 228.51 specs relate to 229 specs?

Does this mean I can use it in my Pathfinder?

Still thinking about that one, need to do some more cross referencing I suspect, but always possible.

I can get Shell Rimula R6 10w40 locally at EuroCarParts but it is expensive at £37:99 for 5 litres!

And using that in the Taxi would only really be cost effiecient if I ran it 10k.

That is the standard service interval for my year of TX4 Taxi but I am changing it early due to the VM engine reputation for going bang after 120/130k miles.

I bought it with 128k on it and as far as I know it is the original.

So my tactics seem to be working ok so far.

 

[Rollins]

Rimula R6 LM 10w-40 is the new name of Rimula Signia 10w-40 which was ,according to Shell, a fully synthetic oil made of their X-tra High Viscosity Index(XHVI) slack wax base oils. Hence the high price of the product.

Delvac XHP LE 10w-40 can be regarded as XOM's analogue product, although an earlier version TDS says "synthetic blend" and the later ones say "synthetic oil".

To compare the test procedures concerning various MB categories...pass/fail limits etc. and to compare them to ,say, ACEA's , have a look at:

Lubricant handbook



..and part of an older version of the same...



...in short, an oil having 228.3 category is expected to (and does) easily outperform 229.1 requirements (and often both categories are granted to mixed-fleet oils). An oil having 228.5 category may have the light-duty 229.1(like Q8 T860 years ago in its CH-4 version-and this is rare !),but due to cheimical content and other lab restrictions (sulfur and chlorine content; SA content;P,Zn; evap.loss etc.or simply viscosity restrictions) it often cannot qualify for 229.3 or 229.5 test procedures - although a 228.5 oil would possibly easily pass the engine tests for 229.3 and 229.5 ...but thats is just a guess...

Also, if ACEA- certified, a mixed-fleet SAE 15w-40 HDEO of gr.I would often have the PC ACEA A3/B4 category. Finding a PC gr.I 15w-40 having A3/B4 however is virtually impossible...

About the D1 LE 5w-30- yes, it has both 228.51 and 228.5 "officially" (listed on the OEM approval list in both categories) , TBN of 12.6 mgKOH/g and is factory-fill and first-choice service product for Sprinter vans.
From the Used oil analysis section(m37charlie uses it in his BMW X5):
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2642510#Post2642510

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: WBoer
Hello,

There are many heavy duty oils (acea E7/API CI4) available in Europe with the a3/b3/b4 specification, is this is a new formulation? And why?
Never seen this before...

Like this:

http://www.kroon-oil.com/en/products/cat...-specificaties/

More than 2 times cheaper than a synthetic 5W40, and it's a specific diesel engine oil for high powered diesel engines.

But should it perform better in an engine requiring Acea B3/B4 in a mild climate?



You often get what you pay for with engine oil and if you want a good oil from a company that has reliable quality control standards, the best idea is to check which oil companies are top of the German market, which is as follows:
Liqui Moly (Overtook Castrol last year), Castrol, Mobil, Shell and Valvoline.
Fuchs are top of the commercial market.
Most modern oils are just as good in a diesel as a petrol engine, although there are a few diesel only conventional and full synthetic oils.

 

[WBoer]

Quote:
Also, if ACEA- certified, a mixed-fleet SAE 15w-40 HDEO of gr.I would often have the PC ACEA A3/B4 category. Finding a PC gr.I 15w-40 having A3/B4 however is virtually impossible...


I noticed that, why is that? A HDEO 15W40 has far better specs than a PC 15W40?
Isn't the HDEO gr 2?

What would be better for an older diesel engine requiring B3/B4 in a mild climate:

1 HD Fleet oil 15W40 CI4/E7 as mentioned
2 PC 5W40 synthetic like Shell helix ultra etc.


Thanx for the links btw

 

[Rollins]

Quote:
A HDEO 15W40 has far better specs than a PC 15W40

Yes,generally. Let's say just better.And cost less...or the same price in the worst case.

Quote:
Isn't the HDEO gr 2?

Euro HDEO of 15w-40 weight are gr.I. The "newcommers" API CJ-4 ; ACEA E9 are gr. II.

Quote:
What would be better for an older diesel engine requiring B3/B4 in a mild climate:
1 HD Fleet oil 15W40 CI4/E7 as mentioned
2 PC 5W40 synthetic like Shell helix ultra etc.


Depends on the application(OEM requirements-these come first ! ); mechanical condition ; type of use; OCI etc. etc.

If the manufacturer prescribes specifically a synthetic ACEA B4- then a 5w-40 A3/B4 is what I'd use.

If the vehicle is not that demanding and the manufacturer allows a humble gr.I 15w-40 A3/B3/B4 oil with a conservative OCI - well, then I'd weigh carefully the pros and cons of buying the 2x more expensive synthetic($$)...as the engine might not even notice the difference.

 

[bigjl]

Thanks for the info.

I made a mistake on the price of the Rimula though.

It is £37:99 for four litres!!!

Ouch.

Delvac XHP LE 10w40 is around £75 for twenty litres.

Delvac 1 SHC 5w40 was around the £100 mark for 20 litres I think.

But they were direct from the distributer, I might try and find a Shell distributer.

 

[bigjl]

Found a distributer of Shell products and can get 20 litres of Shell Rimula R6 LM for £88.08 inc VAT.

Which works out to be £20 cheaper for four litres than EuroCarParts.

More importantly it works out at just over £22 for 5 litres which compares well with the 5 litre price for Mobil 1 0w40 at Costco which is £30.

I think I have a plan forming.

 

[WBoer]

Quote:
If the manufacturer prescribes specifically a synthetic ACEA B4- then a 5w-40 A3/B4 is what I'd use.

If the vehicle is not that demanding and the manufacturer allows a humble gr.I 15w-40 A3/B3/B4 oil with a conservative OCI - well, then I'd weigh carefully the pros and cons of buying the 2x more expensive synthetic($$)...as the engine might not even notice the difference.


Exactly, that is what I was thinking.

I want to use a oil with a strong oil film (high hths) for good engine protectiong because one of my cars is tuned and is pulling trailers often.

I know that the HDEO is designed for hard working diesel engines, it has a higher hths number than a PC 5W40, but that one is synthetic (whatever that means)

That is confusing me a little.

 

[Rollins]

WBoer, gr.I PC SAE 15w-40 have HT/HS viscosity of about 3.9 to 4.3 cP. Same numbers apply to 15w-40 HDEOS. But... the shear stability test is 90 cycles duration for HDEO ACEA E6; E7 and E9 categories ...and only 30 cycles for ACEA Passenger-car categories.

http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/files/2012_ACEA_Oil_Sequences.pdf



Moreover, some OEM requirements are often more demanding- for example Volvo VDS-4 category mandates a HT/HS after-shear viscosity of min. 3.9cP for SAE xw-40. (API 0w-40; 5w-40; 10w-40 min. limit is 3.5cP ...and min. 3.7cP for 15w-40;20w-40).



Some old but interesting documents concerning shear-stability and viscosity loss:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1171590

How permanent viscosity loss affects HT/HS visc. :
ftp://ftp.astmtmc.cmu.edu/docs/diesel/hdeocp/minutes/2001/hdeocp.2001-07/0701ATT15.PDF


Synthetic PC 0w-40;5w-40 HT/HS visc. range usually from 3.5 to 3.8cP for the popular products. Synthetic HDEO 5w-40 is expected to be 3.9 to 4.3cP(like mineral HDEO's). Not every oil maker publishes HT/HS numbers,but that's what I've remembered.

What is the vehicle concerned if not a secret? Anyway, a syn mixed-fleet HDEO with half a dozen major OEM approvals would be a perfect candidate,right?



bigjl-that is a great price you get for LM. You may want to check also LME 5w-30 prices and use it in the DPF'd vehicles.

 

[WBoer]

One car is a 2000 Audi Allroad 4wd with the 2.5tdi v6, it is tuned to 190hp and is pulling often a heavy trailer.
The engine is known for it's camshaft and rockers problems,
(a strong oil wil help)
It has 340.000km on the clock.
Oil requiring, VW505.00

The other car is a Peugeot partner 2.0hdi 2004 with 150.000km and needs just B3 oil.

I use the Kroon dieselfleet cd+ as mentioned in my Iveco truck, and because it is E7 and B4 I'm thinking to use it in all my vehicels now.

It's cheap and the only HDEO oil easy to get.

 

[Rollins]

Well, there are many 15w-40 and 10w-40 which are 501.01 / 505.00 certified...and there used to be some mixed-fleet HDEOs that were certified or claimed 505.00/501.01 level - like this one :
http://www.texwax.ch/datenblatt/Ursa Super TD 15W-40.pdf

...or older versions of Delvac MX 10w-40...

About the Partner- from day one of DW10TD(ATED) introduction in 1999 PSA recommended semisyn 10w-40 of B3 level as minimum requirement (B4 category was introduced in 1998 and such oils were probably still very rare... maybe Total 7000 wasn't B4 certified back then...as PSA recommendations closely follow Total product line ). Although the engine is not that demanding I pesonally wouldn't be happy to see a mineral 15w-40 in it(no matter if HDEO or not). Been using D1 5w-40 API CI-4+ in mine in '99 306 model.
I think the same about the tdi and any other turbocharged DI euro passenger car engine. You may want to look for at least a 10w-40 semisyn mix-fleet HDEO ...and service all three vehicles with one oil .You'll notice that the price gap may not be that great.
This may not be the answer you've expected.Would be interested to see other opinions.

 

[WBoer]

Thank you for your advice.

Why would a mineral (DHEO) not be good in a car?
Because the cold starts, or just because it's mineral, and why would that be that bad?
The mineral is designed for high powered turbo diesels I would say?

An oil engineer told me that a mineral 15W40 HDEO oil has a much stronger oil film than a synthetic 0W40 for instance.

It's not that I don't believe you of course, just curious to know!

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: WBoer
Thank you for your advice.

Why would a mineral (DHEO) not be good in a car?
Because the cold starts, or just because it's mineral, and why would that be that bad?
The mineral is designed for high powered turbo diesels I would say?

An oil engineer told me that a mineral 15W40 HDEO oil has a much stronger oil film than a synthetic 0W40 for instance.

It's not that I don't believe you of course, just curious to know!


In general terms a 15/40 will last longer than a 5/40 if they both use similar base stocks (Amsoil make a fully synthetic 15/40), but in pure oil film strength terms the oil engineer is correct, which is why the best type of oil for use in very hot deserts is listed by Volvo for TDI engines as a 15/40 even for an engine that has an 0/40 approved.
The bad news is that nearly all 15/40's are designed for trucks and that means they have to be cheap, so the quality of their add packs is not so good and not many are true long life oils as a result.