Red Line 5W30 10k Miles - 2004 Volvo S60

[Devo242]

Long time lurker, finally registered and this is my first post. I wanted to share the results of how my 2004 Volvo S60 is handling the switch to Red Line and my extended drain preferences. Couple of notes:

* Sump capacity is 6 quarts
* Oil Filter is Volvo OEM (Mahle)
* Make up oil is 1 quart, but half of it was added very shortly after the oil first went into service. The other half was added at appx. 6,000 in.
* Blackstone had incorrectly listed the engine as a turbo in my previous UOA which I asked them to correct to normally aspirated as you can see in the comments.
* Vehicle is a 5 speed manual, also using Red Line MTL.
* Previous fill was M1 0w30 AFE - I will post this UOA in case anyone is interested.

Blackstone: Thanks for the notes, and sorry for the mix-up with the engine type last time. Luckily, the universal
averages for Volvo's 2.4L engine and the 2.4L Turbo aren't all that different. These averages for the
non-turbo 2.4L engine are based on ~5,700 miles of oil use, so your numbers are in great shape after a
much longer oil run. Even iron is better than average on a per-mile basis. The TBN of 0.5 shows that the oil
was nearly out of active additive, so it was a good time to change the oil. It looks like 10,000-11,000 miles is
going to be a good interval for you. Nice!

Code:


OIL Red Line 5W-30

MILES IN USE 10,245

MILES 126,081

MAKE UP OIL 1 QT

SAMPLE TAKEN 11/20/12



ALUMINUM 2

CHROMIUM 0

IRON 17

COPPER 2

LEAD 0

TIN 1

MOLYBDENUM 576

NICKEL 0

MANGANESE 0

SILVER 0

TITANIUM 0

POTASSIUM 7

BORON 32

SILICON 14

SODIUM 19

CALCIUM 2821

MAGNESIUM 149

PHOSPHORUS 1123

ZINC 1028

BARIUM 0



INSOLUBLES 0.3

WATER 0

FUEL
ANTIFREEZE 0

INSOLUBLES 0.3

FLASHPOINT ºF 410

SUS VIS 210ºF 61.7

cSt @ 212ºF 10.7

TBN 0.5


Overall, I am happy with these results, same oil went back into the sump this time around and I will stick to a 10k change most likely. Considering Red Line 0w30 next time around.

Questions / comments welcome.

Thanks,
Shawn

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Devo242
same oil went back into the sump this time around and I will stick to a 10k change most likely. Considering Red Line 0w30 next time around.

Questions / comments welcome.

Thanks,
Shawn


Red Green puts the same oil back too



Jokes aside, I'd be happy with those results...good choice.

 

[Turk]

9-10k is maxed out as far as I'm concerned, especially with 1 quart make-up oil.

How long do you plan on keeping the vehicle?

If for a long time, I'd change at 8k.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Devo242
Long time lurker, finally registered and this is my first post. I wanted to share the results of how my 2004 Volvo S60 is handling the switch to Red Line and my extended drain preferences. Couple of notes:

* Sump capacity is 6 quarts
* Oil Filter is Volvo OEM (Mahle)
* Make up oil is 1 quart, but half of it was added very shortly after the oil first went into service. The other half was added at appx. 6,000 in.
* Blackstone had incorrectly listed the engine as a turbo in my previous UOA which I asked them to correct to normally aspirated as you can see in the comments.
* Vehicle is a 5 speed manual, also using Red Line MTL.
* Previous fill was M1 0w30 AFE - I will post this UOA in case anyone is interested.

Blackstone: Thanks for the notes, and sorry for the mix-up with the engine type last time. Luckily, the universal
averages for Volvo's 2.4L engine and the 2.4L Turbo aren't all that different. These averages for the
non-turbo 2.4L engine are based on ~5,700 miles of oil use, so your numbers are in great shape after a
much longer oil run. Even iron is better than average on a per-mile basis. The TBN of 0.5 shows that the oil
was nearly out of active additive, so it was a good time to change the oil. It looks like 10,000-11,000 miles is
going to be a good interval for you. Nice!

Code:


OIL Red Line 5W-30

MILES IN USE 10,245

MILES 126,081

MAKE UP OIL 1 QT

SAMPLE TAKEN 11/20/12



ALUMINUM 2

CHROMIUM 0

IRON 17

COPPER 2

LEAD 0

TIN 1

MOLYBDENUM 576

NICKEL 0

MANGANESE 0

SILVER 0

TITANIUM 0

POTASSIUM 7

BORON 32

SILICON 14

SODIUM 19

CALCIUM 2821

MAGNESIUM 149

PHOSPHORUS 1123

ZINC 1028

BARIUM 0



INSOLUBLES 0.3

WATER 0

FUEL
ANTIFREEZE 0

INSOLUBLES 0.3

FLASHPOINT ºF 410

SUS VIS 210ºF 61.7

cSt @ 212ºF 10.7

TBN 0.5


Overall, I am happy with these results, same oil went back into the sump this time around and I will stick to a 10k change most likely. Considering Red Line 0w30 next time around.

Questions / comments welcome.

Thanks,
Shawn


The engine looks good BUT the TBN is far too low, if you want to keep the block clean and avoid long term sludge or varnish trouble it's good news to keep the TBN above one third of the original VOA figure (Probably 3 minimum). The Blackstone min TBN figure of 1 is kind of low in my opinion.
If you buy a good car (I own a V40 1.9TD), use a good oil and that means a major brand that was designed to cope with long OCI's. If the Germans like an oil it will be a good one and based on popularity in Germany, I regard major brands as Liqui Moly, Castrol, Mobil and Shell, although Valvoline and Amsoil have same fans in Germany. There is very little difference in oil performance terms between the majors, but do check the oil finder sites for the best oil and if you want to do 10K mile OCI's a top of the range full synthetic (Probably an 0/30) would be a good idea.
Volvo in Germany use Castrol Edge, although most Volvo owners use Liqui Moly oils because they are cheaper and the common OCI is 30K km for new Volvo cars or 20K km for older ones, so no one uses and oil that finishes up with a 0.5 TBN in only 10K miles.
Is the Moly figure correct, as it looks too high unless you used an additive.

 

[LeakySeals]

I think the perfect OCI is a UOA with a 2.0 TBN. But what I "think" is not represented by this UOA. Some iron, other than that metals next to nothing. This backs up the claim made by XOM in a response on this board, that there's more to it than TBN alone. Something may be up with rtv/gaskets/coolant/air filtration. Worth poking around to see whats up, nothing major at this time.

 

[bigjl]

Interesting UOA especially as Volvo specs a 12.5k OCI on a lot of its vehicles in Europe but 18k for the 2.4.

Though In my handbook it says for the rest of the world the 2.4 uses 0w30 full synth in an A3/B3/B4 spec but in severe service this is to be changed to an 0w30 A5/B5 oil.

I have looked into 0w30 oils as they are recommended for best protection for my Volvo and they always seem to be top spec and expensive.

Though a couple of years ago I was surfing eBay and read about one of the many ex Police T5's for sale and they said it had been serviced every 10k, I wonder what oil they used in it, more than likely Castrol as most Emergency Services have contracts for fuel with BP.

When are you putting up the UOA for the Mobil 0w30?

As I think that is much closer to the oil Volvo spec as it meets A5/B5 specs.

If the OCI was the same it would be interesting to see how this oil compared to the Redline, which meets A3/B3 I think but is a little thicker on start up to what Volvo in Europe spec.

Note that for Europe no A3/B3/B4 oil is ever specced for this engine.

A5/B5 is the only recommendation.

I would be happy to stick with 10k OCI on the Mobil 1 AFE, but not so sure that the Redline is up to that kind of interval.

I await the Mobil UOA with baited breath as my Volvo is due an OCI this month.

Might just spring for some 0w30 A5/B5!

 

[bubbajoe_2112]

Wow, lousy TBN!! I'd stick with M1 instead of Redline based on the two UOA's if you are going to continue the extended OCIs.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: bigjl
Interesting UOA especially as Volvo specs a 12.5k OCI on a lot of its vehicles in Europe but 18k for the 2.4.

Though In my handbook it says for the rest of the world the 2.4 uses 0w30 full synth in an A3/B3/B4 spec but in severe service this is to be changed to an 0w30 A5/B5 oil.

I have looked into 0w30 oils as they are recommended for best protection for my Volvo and they always seem to be top spec and expensive.

Though a couple of years ago I was surfing eBay and read about one of the many ex Police T5's for sale and they said it had been serviced every 10k, I wonder what oil they used in it, more than likely Castrol as most Emergency Services have contracts for fuel with BP.

When are you putting up the UOA for the Mobil 0w30?

As I think that is much closer to the oil Volvo spec as it meets A5/B5 specs.

If the OCI was the same it would be interesting to see how this oil compared to the Redline, which meets A3/B3 I think but is a little thicker on start up to what Volvo in Europe spec.

Note that for Europe no A3/B3/B4 oil is ever specced for this engine.

A5/B5 is the only recommendation.

I would be happy to stick with 10k OCI on the Mobil 1 AFE, but not so sure that the Redline is up to that kind of interval.

I await the Mobil UOA with baited breath as my Volvo is due an OCI this month.

Might just spring for some 0w30 A5/B5!


Agreed, this UOA has about the lowest TBN I have seen for some time, A REAL RED LINE in OCI terms (Sorry I just could not resist that one). The very odd thing about the oil used is that it has fairly normal levels of most additives, BUT has more Moly in it than any oil I have seen before (Normal average might be 50ppm), which at 576 plus is high enough to cause trouble.
I might be wrong, but it looks like the UOA you get from adding snake oil, unless it's a typin error and if it's just part of the oils add pack, I figure that the Redliners used so much to offset the effects of a poor base stock, only it has trashed the detergents insted. Moly comes in 3 different grades, supermarket give away grade, normal and the real McCoy, I kind of think it might just be the former in this case. If it is low grade Moly and the same oil is used again it's high enough to cause corrosion.

 

[chevrofreak]

I am dismayed at the number of purely ignorant posts in this thread.

Redline using lots of moly to make up for poor base stocks? Are you freaking kidding me?!

 

[bigjl]

So how do you explain the UOA?

And the high moly?

But I suspect you might be a Redline fanboy.

There are lots of very high quality oils that no longer have any moly whatsoever.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
I am dismayed at the number of purely ignorant posts in this thread.

Redline using lots of moly to make up for poor base stocks? Are you freaking kidding me?!


Dude, that post is from the same guy who claimed Fuchs leaves the zinc out of GT-1 because it's "too expensive". Pretty much every post of his is chock full of misinformation.

As far as the UOA, a singe UOA isn't going really tell which oil is "better", but for the non-boosted version of this engine the Redline is quite a bit heavier than needed or spec'd, and the Mobil 0W30 obviously held up great. I'd definitely go back to that oil. It's more suitable for this application. For the high-boost turbo version, I'd say it's a different story.

 

[skyship]

FUCHS GT 1 is far cheaper in Germany than Castrol Edge, LM Synthoil, Mobil 1 and Shell. Their basestock is OK, but you get what you pay for and that is a very cheap add pack. Fuchs are a big commercial engine oil manufacturer and a big exporter, if I had a tractor I would probably use their oil, but you get what you pay for and very few non commercial users buy GT1 in Germany. I can assure you it's missing more than just Zinc.
Good to see you recommending a major brand oil like Mobil 1, as I do like the major brands, my own 1.9TDI was run on Mobil dino 10/40 for nearly 10 years with 25K km OCI's (It lists 20K km, but the previous owner seemed to add 5K because he was only doing autobahn trips I presume) and was in great condition when I purchased it, although I would point out Volvo detuned the Renault Laguna block from 130hp to 115hp, to increase engine life and OCI, so the turbo is a cool one that doesn't glow in the dark.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
I am dismayed at the number of purely ignorant posts in this thread.

Redline using lots of moly to make up for poor base stocks? Are you freaking kidding me?!


Consider the source. The same guy says all the majors are getting away from using moly but eneos,Amsoil,Mobil,red-line,shell etc all use the organic type as a friction modifier.
His posts are nothing but trash. I don't even know why he still posts. Trav has demolished any credibility he thought had and his posts have no actual info,just his perceived facts. Ignore him,everyone else does.

 

[OVERKILL]

I've never seen Redline hold its TBN, it is NOT an extended drain oil. It has exceptional high temp performance and a relatively high HTHS per grade. It is an excellent lubricant. But it is NOT designed for extended drain intervals and your UOA confirms that.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I've never seen Redline hold its TBN, it is NOT an extended drain oil. It has exceptional high temp performance and a relatively high HTHS per grade. It is an excellent lubricant. But it is NOT designed for extended drain intervals and your UOA confirms that.


There was one guy one here going long drains with it and it looked pretty good. I wonder if TBN may tend to deplete in a different fashion w/ester-based oils and if other parameters like oxidation/nitration may be necessary to get a real picture of what's going on. The G-oil UOA's always show very low wear metals, with low TBN...but the TBN seems to be low no matter what, whether it's 5K or 10K miles.

Regardless, this engine doesn't get hot enough to benefit from the main advantage of an ester-based racing oil. It just seems like bad ROI to me for this engine, when the M1 0W30 obviously works great.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I've never seen Redline hold its TBN, it is NOT an extended drain oil. It has exceptional high temp performance and a relatively high HTHS per grade. It is an excellent lubricant. But it is NOT designed for extended drain intervals and your UOA confirms that.


There was one guy one here going long drains with it and it looked pretty good. I wonder if TBN may tend to deplete in a different fashion w/ester-based oils and if other parameters like oxidation/nitration may be necessary to get a real picture of what's going on. The G-oil UOA's always show very low wear metals, with low TBN...but the TBN seems to be low no matter what, whether it's 5K or 10K miles.

Regardless, this engine doesn't get hot enough to benefit from the main advantage of an ester-based racing oil. It just seems like bad ROI to me for this engine, when the M1 0W30 obviously works great.


I will add the data point that the TBN didn't hold up in my applications either

 

[skyship]

There are VOA's for top of the line Amsoil, Castrol and LM oils on this site, which are the most expensive German standard full synthetics you can buy and they are Moly free. You will find Moly in most other oils, although if the figure for the Redline oil is correct it has them all beat in Moly terms, assuming it's not some additive.
The additive addicts do get excited about my major brand snake oil free attitudes, but I get to see top of the range engines that have been damaged on a regular basis and in more than half of the cases I see there is something daft in the crankcase or used for an oil filter. I even saw an orange can on Porsch 911 once (Cross threaded and leaking) and when the UOA was done it showed more additives than oil (The turbo went bang), as the owner thought he might have have black death (Sludge) so had put a can of moo solvent in, then another can of stop leak and some Moly for good measure.

 

[chevrofreak]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I've never seen Redline hold its TBN, it is NOT an extended drain oil. It has exceptional high temp performance and a relatively high HTHS per grade. It is an excellent lubricant. But it is NOT designed for extended drain intervals and your UOA confirms that.


There was one guy one here going long drains with it and it looked pretty good. I wonder if TBN may tend to deplete in a different fashion w/ester-based oils and if other parameters like oxidation/nitration may be necessary to get a real picture of what's going on. The G-oil UOA's always show very low wear metals, with low TBN...but the TBN seems to be low no matter what, whether it's 5K or 10K miles.

Regardless, this engine doesn't get hot enough to benefit from the main advantage of an ester-based racing oil. It just seems like bad ROI to me for this engine, when the M1 0W30 obviously works great.


I will add the data point that the TBN didn't hold up in my applications either

TBN was totally shot after 10k in my moms car, too. The wear metals were still very low, though.

 

[electrolover]

Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
I am dismayed at the number of purely ignorant posts in this thread.

Redline using lots of moly to make up for poor base stocks? Are you freaking kidding me?!


Wow.

Maybe redline will start using group III one day

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: skyship
There are VOA's for top of the line Amsoil, Castrol and LM oils on this site, which are the most expensive German standard full synthetics you can buy and they are Moly free. You will find Moly in most other oils, although if the figure for the Redline oil is correct it has them all beat in Moly terms, assuming it's not some additive.
The additive addicts do get excited about my major brand snake oil free attitudes, but I get to see top of the range engines that have been damaged on a regular basis and in more than half of the cases I see there is something daft in the crankcase or used for an oil filter. I even saw an orange can on Porsch 911 once (Cross threaded and leaking) and when the UOA was done it showed more additives than oil (The turbo went bang), as the owner thought he might have have black death (Sludge) so had put a can of moo solvent in, then another can of stop leak and some Moly for good measure.

Incorrect. Amsoil has moly in their top of the line,25000 mile drain oil. You should take your own advice and look at the voa.
Amsoil has been putting moly in the SSO(AZO) line for a couple of years now.