What happened to PP on the GM Dexos1 approved list

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: otis24
I think that the Dexos "requirement" (not using a Dexos approved oil can void your warranty if you have a related failure) is geared toward having customers return to the dealer for service out of fear of voiding their warranty. At least that seemed the jist of things when I worked as a GM salesman.


Yes, but so is everything else, like "sealed" transmissions and Chrysler using cheap plugs in the 5.7 that require a ridiculous 30k mile replacement!

The whole idea is to run the owner back to the big mama stealership so they can recommend services you do not need and then overcharge you for them!

 

[rrrrrroger]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Quote:
So GM is just doing what other Euro and Japanese companies have done since the 90s.
Nobody is balking at GM's certifications. GM had a number of certifications PRIOR to DEXOS. The issue is with the royalties GM charges.
What royalties? I'd like to see a citation. If you mean they charge for testing, then yes of course. So too does VW for 502 or 505 or 507 cert.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Quote:
So GM is just doing what other Euro and Japanese companies have done since the 90s.
Nobody is balking at GM's certifications. GM had a number of certifications PRIOR to DEXOS. The issue is with the royalties GM charges.
What royalties? I'd like to see a citation. If you mean they charge for testing, then yes of course. So too does VW for 502 or 505 or 507 cert.


You obviously haven't done any reading up on the DEXOS fiasco. Why do you think people (and the oil companies) were so opposed to it? Because they don't like GM?

GM already HAD certifications. They CHANGED their certification program to reap royalties off of it with the "DEXOS" system.

A good read for you from the ILMA (Independent Lube Manufacturer Association):

http://www.ilma.org/advocacy/letters/gm_letter_11-16-09.pdf

Quote:
As was evident from the question-and-answer period that followed your
presentations to the Board, independent lubricant manufacturers have
serious concerns with the dexos specification and how the licensing
program is expected to operate. The Board felt it important to convey
these concerns to GM. ILMA would like the opportunity to discuss these
matters further with you and/or other GM representatives.
Your presentation indicated that GM has developed its individualized,
dexos engine oil specification for all of its vehicles sold in North
America, beginning in model year 2011. At a minimum, ILMA members
and other lubricant manufacturers will have to produce and sell a dexos
engine oil and an ILSAC GF-5 engine oil, beginning in late 2010. If the
other automakers were to adopt the same business model as GM here
in the United States, ILMA members and other lubricant manufacturers
would have to make a different specification engine oil for each
automaker’s brand as opposed to the current ILSAC/OIL system of a
single engine oil specification for all vehicle brands. This alternative, as
you can imagine, is not attractive and is extremely worrisome to ILMA
members.

*snip*

ILMA members also are concerned that dexos will be significantly more expensive to produce than a product made to the universal engine oil specification. It is estimated that the cost to make a dexos product will be in the range of 40% to 60% higher than the cost to make a current ILSAC GF-4 engine oil and will be some 30% higher than the anticipated cost of an ILSAC GF-5 engine oil. Independent lubricant manufacturers question whether the marginal benefits of dexos compared to the new ILSAC GF-5 specification are worth such cost differences. ILMA understands that a key cost driver for dexos will be the cost if molybdenum disulfide must be used as a friction modifier ($22 to $38 per pound), rather than zinc dithiophosphate ($0.65 per pound). Some ILMA members also have questioned whether adequate Group III base stocks will be available to meet expected near-term demand.

The CQA presentation set forth that each dexos viscosity grade will require a separate license and the payment of either a $0.36 per gallon royalty for licensed products or a “lump sum” for all licensed products. Because there are four dexos viscosity grades, the annual license fee paid to GM would be $4,000. Under the API License Program, the comparable license fee for an ILMA member is $1,250 per year with a royalty of $0.0015 per gallon (assessed only after the first 1,000,000 gallons). Accordingly, ILMA questions why GM’s royalty is and needs to be approximately 240% higher than API’s royalty (not including the first 1,000,000 gallons without a royalty under the API license). We find disingenuous the one explanation that the royalties will be used, in part, to fund a consumer advertising program on dexos.

ILMA firmly believes that GM’s substantial per-gallon royalty charge is a barrier to entry for independent lubricant manufacturers and poses serious competitive problems. For example, many ILMA members currently supply ILSAC GF-4 and API SM engine oils to local GM dealers. It is unclear at this time whether dealerships purchasing the GM brand of dexos product will be required to pay the same royalty that will be charged to non-GM brands with a dexos license. If the GM brand of dexos product (i.e., Mr. Goodwrench) does not have the royalty attached to it, then GM will have a significant cost advantage versus a licensed product when selling dexos product to its dealerships. ILMA members fear that many long-term dealer relationships will be lost through such price discrimination.


I suggest reading the whole letter.

 

[rrrrrroger]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Why do you think people (and the oil companies) were so opposed to it?
I don't know but I suspected it was the Same reason they were opposed to 0w-20 or 5w-20 back in 2001, 2, 3. Or why even now some refuse to use VW504-certified in their new cars. They oppose new ideas/don't like change.

Anyway thanks for the citation. It's good to know we don't have to use dexos.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Why do you think people (and the oil companies) were so opposed to it?
I don't know but I suspected it was the Same reason they were opposed to 0w-20 or 5w-20 back in 2001, 2, 3. Or why even now some refuse to use VW504-certified in their new cars. They oppose new ideas/don't like change.

Anyway thanks for the citation. It's good to know we don't have to use dexos.


No, it was the royalties. DEXOS is a money-grab, and a significant one.

 

[threeputtpar]

Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
Originally Posted By: bp09
I was just up looking to see if GM had updated the approved oil list to include PU and discovered that PP is no longer listed. What's the deal?

http://www.gmdexos.com/licensedbrands/dexos1licensedbrands.html


Look at this list. Dexos or not, I wouldn't use many of these oils in my lawnmower! Total trash. This is a shakedown by GM!

Scott


Please tell me you are not being honest, there is not a total trash company on the list, there are some that the average consumer will not recognize, but hardly total trash even though I am not a fan of GM at the moment I would not say GM is total trash and you can argue GM is the most shady company on that list.


Dave, I am dead serious.

Colorado Petroleum Products Co. took me to a site where my anti-virus said was unsafe. I tried again and it now take me to something else, totally unrelated.

Smitty's Oil, from their website "more than 400 dedicated employees", and much of their business revolves around packaging and distributing other company's products. How stout do you think their chemical engineering department is?

Bob Johnson Lubricants and Hartland Oil. Bob Johnson is a distributor of that product. Find a website for Hartland Oil.

Coastal Blending & Packaging, a blender and packager of many things. How big is their chemical engineering department?

CHS Inc. Maxtron. That appears to be Cenex oil. Never heard of them.

MFA Oil. A farmer owned co-op. Without farmers, we'd die. You have to love them. Seriously. But is this co-op the best way to get a quality automotive oil?

There are others, but I think I made my case. Understand, just because a company is huge does not mean it is a good company that makes quality products. But, given the fact that a new factory engine on my dog hauling Honda Element probably costs $10K, why take a chance with an unknown company?

I am an "equal opportunity" brand person. For example, I'd never use Valero or Arco products even with them being very large corporations. I'd never buy Costco gas; whose gas is it?

Even if I didn't do all my own automotive work, I'd never use bulk oil from a quick lube place, regardless of the brand. Many people on this very forum say that additives settle out and they shake their oil bottles. Some Blackstone VOAs have even made mention of the same thing. If true, the bottom of a bulk oil drum has to be very additive rich!

Let's take a small company, for example. Redline Oil. At least they have a track record of many seemingly satisfied users - and many VOAs and UOAs as well. Plus, they are active in the racing world. In this sense, a small company like Redline is a safe bet.

But, Hartland, MFA, Coastal, etc.? Not for me. Go ahead, you use it on your own basic $10K Honda motor. I cannot imagine someone using these unknown products on a GM LS, BMW M, or Audi S motor!

Scott


Sorry everyone, I'm just too lazy today to crop all of the quotes down to what I want to address.

Scott, this is quite a conclusion you've jumped to. I'll start off by saying that GM has a standing deal with onr or two of the additive blending companies for dexos1 add packs, so any blender who wants to make a dexos1 oil needs to buy the adds from one or two sources. This guarantees that the oil will meet the spec no matter who is doing the blending, whether it be SOPUS or Smitty's or Coastal or Cenex, or Service Pro (I've used and researched them all). And with Colorado Oil, you are assuming that because their IT department cannot get their website free of a virus that their chemical engineers are incompetant? Maybe if the two jobs are performed by the same person it could be the case, but seriously that's a huge leap of unrelated things.

Your Honda will run just fine on any API SN oil, so using that as an example is just silly. Also, using a BMW M motor and an Audi S motor as other examples when neither of them are related to the dexos1 spec is rediculous. Get a clue.

 

[rrrrrroger]

Saying "If you use this add. pack you are dexos qualified" seems pretty weak. A small farmers' coop could take cheap 50 cent oil, add the dexos additives, and then be certified. At least that's how it appears.

And Pennzoil is on the list but only the Blend carries the green symbol. It makes me wonder if the synthetic is truly a dexos oil, or an old pre-dexos recipe?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
Saying "If you use this add. pack you are dexos qualified" seems pretty weak. A small farmers' coop could take cheap 50 cent oil, add the dexos additives, and then be certified. At least that's how it appears.

And Pennzoil is on the list but only the Blend carries the green symbol. It makes me wonder if the synthetic is truly a dexos oil, or an old pre-dexos recipe?


It isn't quite "slap the add-pack in some base oil and it is certified". Essentially, you can purchase an additive package from any of the approved vendors to blend with a specific base oil combo to achieve an approved lubricant. This is a significantly less expensive approach than having to blend up your own additive package and then submitting the finished lubricant for approval. The idea is to make the approval list longer and have DEXOS approved oils easier to obtain.

 

[daman]

Originally Posted By: bp09
and discovered that PP is no longer listed.



"Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30 Full
Synthetic Motor Oil

Shell Oil Products Co.

dexos1

5W-30

Global"

 

[Nick R]

FWIW "Nippon Oil" Is Eneos iirc. I'm not a huge fan of Dexos either, I can see how it could benefit consumers if done properly.

 

[Smokescreen]

So let's say you decide today I am going to use a non-Dexos oil in my GM truck and the oil pump fails...(I know it is way out there but humor me)

Does GM have "tracers" or "identifiers" in Dexos approved oils, how do they know?

 

[daman]

Oil sample and proof of maintenance records if under warranty id say.

 

[sopususer]

Originally Posted By: rrrrrroger
Saying "If you use this add. pack you are dexos qualified" seems pretty weak. A small farmers' coop could take cheap 50 cent oil, add the dexos additives, and then be certified. At least that's how it appears.

And Pennzoil is on the list but only the Blend carries the green symbol. It makes me wonder if the synthetic is truly a dexos oil, or an old pre-dexos recipe?


Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: bp09
and discovered that PP is no longer listed.



"Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30 Full
Synthetic Motor Oil

Shell Oil Products Co.

dexos1

5W-30

Global"

A little clarification. The original post in this thread was from April. For a while Pennzoil Platinum was not on the official dexos list. (Shell and GM must have had some "discussions.") For a while Shell's only synthetic on the list was QSUD. Then out of the blue the new Ultra (SN) came out and the original PDS from Dec 2011 (I have a copy) listed PU as dexos certified, but it never made the official GM list. Eventually Shell pulled the PU pds and all of a sudden Pennzoil Platinum was back on the list. All of this took place over the course of a few months.

Here's my guess as to what happened from the outside looking in. It appears that GM and SOPUS were in "negotiations" for certification on other oils or juggling of certifications among different SOPUS products and there must have been a period where the negotiations blew up (and PP came off the list). Once things were settled, PP was official and became a part of the list again.

BTW I saw my first green dexos labeled PP in Walmart last week. I didn't have my phone or I would have taken a picture. Rest assured PP is dexos certified as of this posting.

 

[sopususer]

Here's a copy of the 2011 Pennzoil Ultra TDS I referenced in my last post. It wasn't long after this that PP disappeared from the list. Notice the dexos specification is listed.

 

[FoxS]

On Pennzoils website, it says there is a version of Gold that meets Dexos

Maybe they are minimizing royalty payments while also pushing the Gold variant

 

[rrrrrroger]

It seems odd the Pennzoil Ultra is not listed as a dexos oil, when it's upposedly the "best" oil they sell. Also is rather odd their website was never updated to list "dexos" under the Platinum brand.

From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 11:44 AM

Yes, Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30 is approved. You may
find all products that GM approves at www.gmdexos.com.

Regards,
Keith
Technical Information
800.237.8645 Opt 3,2