0W-20 vs 5W-20

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: k24a4
This may be simplistic, but if a vehicle is getting better mpg's than can we assume it is running more efficiently, and if it is running more efficiently, it is under less stress and therefore will last longer?


Not a valid correlation
 
Just remember guys, never follow your manual. All car manufacturers never do any testing at all, they just huck things together based on everyones opinion except the people who actually drive the cars. And I'm on the internet so you can trust me. I'll even blame CAFE so I sound more legit. Everyone hates the fact that car companies have to sell us things like fuel injection now because they were forced into better technology. Curse technological progress, its all a scam.





Edit: Why they suggest 0W-20? Probably to make sure you're using a fully synthetic oil so it better correlates with the way they've tested the car. Granted I'm sure they could simply specify to "use a synthetic" and get the same effect. Other then that I see little difference in using 0W over 5W in your application.

You'll probably see a more unanimous push for 0W-20 in new cars (and more specifically, new engines) to try to get that oil weight commonplace...thus cheaper and easier to deal with in bulk.

Or its very possible they tested it only on 0W-20 and are simply not bothered with testing it on 5W-20. Yeah yeah, same viscosity at operating temp, but companies test the living [censored] out of things like this and its possible. Some car manufacturers refuse to use certain types of carpet until years of testing gets done to make sure it smells right after the car has aged for instance.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Just remember guys, never follow your manual. All car manufacturers never do any testing at all, they just huck things together based on everyones opinion except the people who actually drive the cars. And I'm on the internet so you can trust me. I'll even blame CAFE so I sound more legit. Everyone hates the fact that car companies have to sell us things like fuel injection now because they were forced into better technology. Curse technological progress, its all a scam.


LOL, just strengthens your argument...not !!!
 
Originally Posted By: JOD

Originally Posted By: TaterandNoodles
And when exactly did 30wts become thick? Some of the current blends have a HTHS of 3.0-3.2.


It became thick when 20W oils in the 2.6 range became popular! When I first started lurking on this site, 5W30 oils were the "thin, fuel economy oils" with lots of VI's that would leave deposits and hinder lubrication... That said, the hths of the average 30W oil is at least 15-20% thicker than the average 20W oil. So, the difference is reasonably significant.


And this point, that 5W-30 was not too long ago considered thin, reveals the hypocrisy of the thick oil group who are now fine with said 5W-30. Give it a decade or so and they'll be arguing that 0W-10 is too thin because Europe recommends 0W-20, lol. They'll scream about oil leaks, oil consumption, and engine wear but, as is so typical, will have absolutely no evidence to back their FUD claims.
 
Originally Posted By: Capa
Originally Posted By: JOD

Originally Posted By: TaterandNoodles
And when exactly did 30wts become thick? Some of the current blends have a HTHS of 3.0-3.2.


It became thick when 20W oils in the 2.6 range became popular! When I first started lurking on this site, 5W30 oils were the "thin, fuel economy oils" with lots of VI's that would leave deposits and hinder lubrication... That said, the hths of the average 30W oil is at least 15-20% thicker than the average 20W oil. So, the difference is reasonably significant.


And this point, that 5W-30 was not too long ago considered thin, reveals the hypocrisy of the thick oil group who are now fine with said 5W-30. Give it a decade or so and they'll be arguing that 0W-10 is too thin because Europe recommends 0W-20, lol. They'll scream about oil leaks, oil consumption, and engine wear but, as is so typical, will have absolutely no evidence to back their FUD claims.


The recommendations in Europe didn't change while the 30 -> 20 weight migration happened on this side of the pond. They still spec an oil with an HTHS of 3.5cP+ for what is likely the majority of applications, which means a heavy 30 or a 40-weight is required.

I find it hilarious that we have people arguing that just because somebody is concerned that their engine spec's a heavier oil in Europe than it does in NA that they are suddenly a "thick head". It reeks of condescension and elitism. If this is truly how you want the "thin crowd" to be perceived, then please carry on. Otherwise, it is actually quite possible to have a civil discussion on the topic, as we have in the past, that doesn't involve this nonsense.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Just remember guys, never follow your manual. All car manufacturers never do any testing at all, they just huck things together based on everyones opinion except the people who actually drive the cars. And I'm on the internet so you can trust me. I'll even blame CAFE so I sound more legit. Everyone hates the fact that car companies have to sell us things like fuel injection now because they were forced into better technology. Curse technological progress, its all a scam.


LOL, just strengthens your argument...not !!!


I never had an arguement. I was simply stating the armchair engineering going on here, littered with political opinions and bad science and doublespeak to support arguements, purely because people are absolutely desperate to find a way to say "I'm right" to their opposition, is hilarous, but tragic and getting old.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Just remember guys, never follow your manual. All car manufacturers never do any testing at all, they just huck things together based on everyones opinion except the people who actually drive the cars. And I'm on the internet so you can trust me. I'll even blame CAFE so I sound more legit. Everyone hates the fact that car companies have to sell us things like fuel injection now because they were forced into better technology. Curse technological progress, its all a scam.


LOL, just strengthens your argument...not !!!


I never had an arguement. I was simply stating the armchair engineering going on here, littered with political opinions and bad science and doublespeak to support arguements, purely because people are absolutely desperate to find a way to say "I'm right" to their opposition, is hilarious and old.


Isn't that a little odd to be telling somebody who is an engineer in designing bearings that he is doing "armchair engineering" when he's probably the only one here qualified to be speaking on the topic?
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Isn't that a little odd to be telling somebody who is an engineer in designing bearings that he is doing "armchair engineering" when he's probably the only one here qualified to be speaking on the topic?


Telling me he has an engineering degree is as valid on the internet as me saying I have one.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Isn't that a little odd to be telling somebody who is an engineer in designing bearings that he is doing "armchair engineering" when he's probably the only one here qualified to be speaking on the topic?


Telling me he has an engineering degree is as valid as me saying I have one.


Going by that logic, none of us should even be talking on here then.

I mean, if you are unwilling to entertain the credentials of the people you are engaging in a discussion with, then why have the discussion? You should be out at the local Regina meeting of Tribologists and Engineers learning this stuff first-hand
smirk.gif
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I mean, if you are unwilling to entertain the credentials of the people you are engaging in a discussion with, then why have the discussion?


Evidence, testing, and numbers on paper make the world turn. So far I've seen a very good amount of Ford's homework and it looks good, even though that only represents Ford. Unfortunately, none of the other manufacturer's have shown their work, so anything with that is heresay.

If you're suggesting I should trust a guy's opinion because he comes here and says he's an engineer? No. I listen but I expect people to show their work before its analyzed and a hypothesis is formed.

Edit: "I know what numbers are better" isn't work. Show conclusive testing that proves one is worse then the other and let me know.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I mean, if you are unwilling to entertain the credentials of the people you are engaging in a discussion with, then why have the discussion?


Evidence, testing, and numbers on paper make the world turn. So far I've seen a very good amount of Ford's homework and it looks good, even though that only represents Ford. Unfortunately, none of the other manufacturer's have shown their work, so anything with that is heresay.

If you're suggesting I should trust a guy's opinion because he comes here and says he's an engineer? No. I listen but I expect people to show their work before its analyzed and a hypothesis is formed.


Trust? No, but I expect you to at least consider it rather than the dismissive back and forth I'm seeing from both sides of the fence here.

Shannow has posted some pictures of him at work in the past (he works in power generation.... so while not directly related to the topic we are discussing, his experience on the topic of bearing design and lubrication is still relevant), I have no reason to doubt his credentials. Does it make his statements unquestionable? No, of course not. But at the same time, I think his experience and what he voices should at least cause us pause and allow us to consider what he's saying.

FWIW, I've not seen Shannow universally advocate the usage of thick oils over thin. His position is always that it reduces the safety margin, but that this is part of the design and bearing design itself in these engines has been adjusted to compensate for this in more recent applications. He's an advocate of the correct lubricant for the application. A position that is endorsed by many manufacturers, particularly for applications in Europe; Germany in particular, where usage profile and ambient temperature plays a significant role in lubricant choice.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
His position is always that it reduces the safety margin, but that this is part of the design and bearing design itself in these engines has been adjusted to compensate for this in more recent applications. He's an advocate of the correct lubricant for the application. A position that is endorsed by many manufacturers, particularly for applications in Europe; Germany in particular, where usage profile and ambient temperature plays a significant role in lubricant choice.


Excellent, that much I can wholeheartedly concur with. Its the sensationalist B.S. about how it "has to be worse so its ruining my motor" and its all CAFE's fault that seriously needs to stop, which was the basis of my initial sarcastic moaning.

What I would love more then anything else would be if people understood that reducing that safety margin (even if it actually does to any measureable amount, I would argue its rather small in almost all conditions and probably absolutely imperceptable in regular traffic) doesn't immediately equate to "things wear out more". Its a safety /margin/ which equates in no way to an absolutely quantifiable number for engine wear. Most cars (or people in their lifetime) never come near that safety margin in terms of stressing their engine. The problem is it gets chucked up in the air that something is %1 worse...so it must wear out engines at least %1 faster...and the rollercoaster begins, people blame CAFE, start saying their manufacturers are evil, saying hauling their dog at 70MPH is "stressful" to the oil, etc...

But even I'll side with that and say it reduces that safety margin. Oils are fantastic and better then before but there is that upper percentile of engine stress, like high heat, racing, etc, that just needs good old fashion viscosity. Problem is someone driving a Ford Fiesta to grandma's house hears that and immediately manages to equate thin oils with engine damage.

Edit: As for 0W-20 v 5W-20, well, if Toyota is pushing 0W-20 hopefully it makes up for the cost difference by lasting longer. Someone should look into the engine in that thing and check out the differences in oil change interval on ones rated for 0W-20 and ones rated for 5W-20, unless they're all 0W-20.

If they're all 0W-20 I think Toyota got lazy and never tested 5W-20 most likely.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: rraiderr
Since they are both 20W oils why does Toyota make such a big stink that you have to run 0W-20 and not 5W-20 in the new FJ

They even go as far to say if you run 5w-20 it needs to be replaced with 0W-20.

How much real world difference is there between the 5W to 20W oil.

They are both 20 weight when hot.

Thanks

Yes there is a noticeable difference between the very high 216 VI TGMO 0W-20 and a typical low VI 5W-20. The following thread comments on the differences in switching from PYB 5W-20 to TGMO:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2834015&page=1

The major noticeable difference is on start-up and during the warming up period but it should be noted that TGMO 0W-20 is still lighter at normal operating temp's.

It has also been mentioned in this thread that there are some 5W-20 synthetics that are lighter than some 0W-20's. That's true but not significantly (and certainly no OEM 0W-20s) and I only know of one or two examples of that. But all API 0W-20s are lighter than conventional (dino) 5W-20 oils and that is the main point when an OEM specifies the 0W-20 grade.

It should also be noted that when companies like Toyota, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi specify the 0W-20 grade a light high VI oil is what is being recommended. All other aftermarket OTC 0W-20 oils are not high VI oils and therefore are significantly heavier, consiquently if you want to run an oil with the viscosity characteristics of what the manufacturer intended it's best to stick with an OEM 0W-20 oil.
 
I seriously am starting to understand why some menufacturers want their own specifications (like Dexos) as opposed to relying on API service grades.

The differences in oils are rather enormous to say the least which makes for really confusing problems.

Quote:
But all API 0W-20s are lighter than conventional (dino) 5W-20 oils and that is the main point when an OEM specifies the 0W-20 grade.


True, but the very design of that oil grading system means someone could theoretically put out a 0W-20 that may be slightly thicker on the upper end of the grade then a dino 5W-20, no? Whats to say that doesn't happen, throwing a huge monkey wrench in the mix?

I understand 0W-20 being thinner is a generally acceptable statement right now but it sounds odd to force 0W-20 on someone when the real technical data says a 5W-20 could theoretically be lighter then it.

Edit: Except for starting your vehicle, which obviously is gonna be the unanimous 0W benefit, but if thats Toyota's entire arguement for it I think many people in warmer climates won't be terrifically thrilled for the favour of having to use it to get warranty.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Capa
Originally Posted By: JOD


And this point, that 5W-30 was not too long ago considered thin, reveals the hypocrisy of the thick oil group who are now fine with said 5W-30. Give it a decade or so and they'll be arguing that 0W-10 is too thin because Europe recommends 0W-20, lol. They'll scream about oil leaks, oil consumption, and engine wear but, as is so typical, will have absolutely no evidence to back their FUD claims.


The recommendations in Europe didn't change while the 30 -> 20 weight migration happened on this side of the pond. They still spec an oil with an HTHS of 3.5cP+ for what is likely the majority of applications, which means a heavy 30 or a 40-weight is required.

I find it hilarious that we have people arguing that just because somebody is concerned that their engine spec's a heavier oil in Europe than it does in NA that they are suddenly a "thick head". It reeks of condescension and elitism. If this is truly how you want the "thin crowd" to be perceived, then please carry on. Otherwise, it is actually quite possible to have a civil discussion on the topic, as we have in the past, that doesn't involve this nonsense.



Europe's migration to thinner oils has been slow but inevitable. Sure, there are many applications where they still spec a 40 weight, yet there are applications where a 30 weight is specced. Nonetheless, let's not forget that, just like the US, with the the passing of decades Europe has gone thinner.

I recall a "thick head" (to borrow your term) essentially arguing that Germany has more auto engineers than any other country and therefore they know what they are doing. If that isn't the epitome of elitism and condescension, then what is? I don't recall you speaking out then? Of course, an argument of this sort is weak and is a classic straw man. Consider that Germany has the most chess grandmasters per capita. However, they don't have a grandmaster ranked in the top 30 in the world and they have had only one world champion and none in over 90 years. Also, there have been over 40 chess Olympiads and Germany has only earned gold once. I admit that I could have been more civil and so I do apologize for that.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
I seriously am starting to understand why some menufacturers want their own specifications (like Dexos) as opposed to relying on API service grades.

The differences in oils are rather enormous to say the least which makes for really confusing problems.

Quote:
But all API 0W-20s are lighter than conventional (dino) 5W-20 oils and that is the main point when an OEM specifies the 0W-20 grade.


True, but the very design of that oil grading system means someone could theoretically put out a 0W-20 that may be slightly thicker on the upper end of the grade then a dino 5W-20, no? Whats to say that doesn't happen, throwing a huge monkey wrench in the mix?

I understand 0W-20 being thinner is a generally acceptable statement right now but it sounds odd to force 0W-20 on someone when the real technical data says a 5W-20 could theoretically be lighter then it.

Edit: Except for starting your vehicle, which obviously is gonna be the unanimous 0W benefit, but if thats Toyota's entire arguement for it I think many people in warmer climates won't be terrifically thrilled for the favour of having to use it to get warranty.


Precisely
thumbsup2.gif


Ford spec's 5w20 for the Modular (and they have their own oil spec....) but what is to stop somebody from using the TGMO 0w20 in it with its high VI and even lower visc (and HTHS)? What are the potential issues here in something like a Mustang that gets auto-X'd or an F-250 pulling 13K through the rockies? Certainly Ford tested it, but that was with THEIR oil spec and subsequent controls in place, not Toyota's "ultra light" version.

And of course this brings up the whole vagueness issue of the SAE grades where we have oils like M1 AFE 0w30 and Castrol GC 0w30 which are both the same "grade" but are at the complete opposite ends of the spectrum within that grade
crazy2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Capa



Europe's migration to thinner oils has been slow but inevitable. Sure, there are many applications where they still spec a 40 weight, yet there are applications where a 30 weight is specced. Nonetheless, let's not forget that, just like the US, with the the passing of decades Europe has gone thinner.


But this is where the SAE grading breaks down. I mentioned that in my post above this one, but if we take two "30 weight" oils like M1 AFE 0w30 and Castrol "GC" 0w30, they are both "30 weight" oils, but the Euro spec oil is the GC, with it, despite being a 30-weight, having a MUCH higher HTHS and is in general, a much heavier lubricant.

Your second point about lubricants going thinner in Europe, well, there have always been thin lubricants in Europe. Doug Hillary spoke of this in great detail in the past. 20-weight oils were spec'd "back in the day" for all kinds of equipment.

And we tend to be overly general when we speak of Europe. Oft, when we say Europe, we really mean Germany. Because that's where the "heavy spec" oil vehicles come from. And it is most certainly due to these vehicles being spec'd and tested for Autobahn usage. Usage that those vehicles will likely never see in North America unless driven on a race track.

A good example of the "Autobahn syndrome" as I will now call it was an example recently cited by Trav which spoke of the Prius IIRC which had dual recommendations for use in Germany. One was 0w30 if the car was to see a majority of highway (Autobahn) usage, the other was 0w20 if the primary usage profile was to be around town.

We had some good discussion on this at the time. His point wasn't that Germany was unique (though in a sense, I think it is, due to the Autobahn) simply that the VARIANCES in recommendations in Germany were indeed an indication that these auto manufacturers do NOT think that 0w20/5w20 is perfect for every ambient and operating condition on earth, despite what is pandered to those of us in the North American market. And that their recommendations vary depending on usage profile and ambient conditions in other parts of the world.

Quote:
I recall a "thick head" (to borrow your term) essentially arguing that Germany has more auto engineers than any other country and therefore they know what they are doing. If that isn't the epitome of elitism and condescension, then what is? I don't recall you speaking out then?


I don't recall seeing that argument being made. If I had, I would have said something.

Quote:
I admit that I could have been more civil and so I do apologize for that.


Perfect
smile.gif
So perhaps we can now continue this discussion in a civil matter. Both sides have good points.
 
Originally Posted By: Capa
I recall a "thick head" (to borrow your term) essentially arguing that Germany has more auto engineers than any other country and therefore they know what they are doing. If that isn't the epitome of elitism and condescension

Condescending and elitist?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

R
Motul 8100 0w-20: Eco-Lite vs Eco-Clean (or anything else)? For Citroen C1 (Toyota Aygo)
Replies
11
Views
964
vinu_neuro
Ed_Flecko
Suggestions for a slightly different oil?
2
Replies
28
Views
2K
Pablo
Hillbilly Deluxe
Moving from 0W-20 to 5W-30 in late model Toyotas
3 4 5
Replies
86
Views
14K
ARCOgraphite
T
2018 VW Tiguan EA888 g3 engine calls for 0w-20; can I use 5w-20?
2 3
Replies
46
Views
5K
edyvw
I_Hate_CVTs
2023 VB WRX - Subaru has conflicting oil recommendations!
2
Replies
31
Views
4K
Rand
Back
Top