If you buy an AGM don't buy an Optima, you'll get more battery for the money by buying Exide or Deka.
Are AGM Batteries worth the extra $
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Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
If you buy an AGM don't buy an Optima, you'll get more battery for the money by buying Exide or Deka.
I think Optima changed ownership and went down hill. I think they were originally made in Europe (Sweden?).
If you buy an AGM don't buy an Optima, you'll get more battery for the money by buying Exide or Deka.
I think Optima changed ownership and went down hill. I think they were originally made in Europe (Sweden?).
Hello, I noticed your conversation involving our batteries and wanted to offer some assistance. Whether or not our battery or any other is worth the additional cost over a traditional flooded battery is really a judgement call each owner needs to make. As some have mentioned, potential corrosion damage from flooded batteries is the only reason some folks need to make the switch to AGM products. The increased life expectancy of AGM products (our batteries can last up to twice as long as flooded batteries) is worth the extra cost for others.
While some have mentioned mounting our batteries in enclosed spaces, I do want to remind everyone that any lead-acid battery (including Optimas) can vent gas in extreme situations that is both flammable and toxic. For that reason, we always recommend that any battery mounted in enclosed areas (including trunks and interiors) be properly-vented to the outside air.
Some vehicles/owners just don't see the need to spend more on a battery. If your vehicle is leased or installing a $200 AGM battery increases the value of your vehicle by 20% or more, finding the cheapest battery with the longest warranty and most-liberal return policy might be your best option. Ultimately, proper voltage maintenance is the key to long battery life. Fully-charged, our RedTops will measure about 12.6-12.8 volts and our YellowTops will measure about 13.0-13.2 volts. Whenever any battery (AGM or otherwise) is discharged below 12.4 volts and left sitting in that state, sulfation will begin to form in the battery, which diminishes both capacity and lifespan. That makes a quality battery maintenance device an excellent investment for any vehicle that doesn't see regular use.
The Critic, there is no issue regarding your mom's Altima maintaining an AGM battery. This is the video that explains how to recover batteries that have been deeply-discharged, as mentioned earlier in this thread.
AGM batteries are still lead-acid batteries and are increasingly being used in OE applications, as start/stop technology begins to increase it's presence in this market (it is already huge in Europe). However, with the larger rollout of AGM technology, many of these products use recycled lead. We still use 99.99% pure lead (and always have). Likewise, we still manufacture all of our own products in our own facility and they are the only batteries produced there. We never re-label or re-spec our products for our retail partners and the quality of our products has continued to improve, since we were acquired by Johnson Controls more than ten years ago. If anyone has any questions about our products, I'll do my best to answer them.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries
While some have mentioned mounting our batteries in enclosed spaces, I do want to remind everyone that any lead-acid battery (including Optimas) can vent gas in extreme situations that is both flammable and toxic. For that reason, we always recommend that any battery mounted in enclosed areas (including trunks and interiors) be properly-vented to the outside air.
Some vehicles/owners just don't see the need to spend more on a battery. If your vehicle is leased or installing a $200 AGM battery increases the value of your vehicle by 20% or more, finding the cheapest battery with the longest warranty and most-liberal return policy might be your best option. Ultimately, proper voltage maintenance is the key to long battery life. Fully-charged, our RedTops will measure about 12.6-12.8 volts and our YellowTops will measure about 13.0-13.2 volts. Whenever any battery (AGM or otherwise) is discharged below 12.4 volts and left sitting in that state, sulfation will begin to form in the battery, which diminishes both capacity and lifespan. That makes a quality battery maintenance device an excellent investment for any vehicle that doesn't see regular use.
The Critic, there is no issue regarding your mom's Altima maintaining an AGM battery. This is the video that explains how to recover batteries that have been deeply-discharged, as mentioned earlier in this thread.
AGM batteries are still lead-acid batteries and are increasingly being used in OE applications, as start/stop technology begins to increase it's presence in this market (it is already huge in Europe). However, with the larger rollout of AGM technology, many of these products use recycled lead. We still use 99.99% pure lead (and always have). Likewise, we still manufacture all of our own products in our own facility and they are the only batteries produced there. We never re-label or re-spec our products for our retail partners and the quality of our products has continued to improve, since we were acquired by Johnson Controls more than ten years ago. If anyone has any questions about our products, I'll do my best to answer them.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries
Originally Posted By: Corvette Owner
I buy them for my Corvette, since the car's computer is below the battery, a leak can be VERY costly.
On 4th gen LS1 f bodies the coolant overflow tank is directly below the battery (the top of the tank has the battery's mounting bracket molded right into it).
That's ALL of the motivation I needed to use an AGM.
I buy them for my Corvette, since the car's computer is below the battery, a leak can be VERY costly.
On 4th gen LS1 f bodies the coolant overflow tank is directly below the battery (the top of the tank has the battery's mounting bracket molded right into it).
That's ALL of the motivation I needed to use an AGM.
Originally Posted By: OptimaJim
Likewise, we still manufacture all of our own products in our own facility and they are the only batteries produced there. We never re-label or re-spec our products for our retail partners and the quality of our products has continued to improve, since we were acquired by Johnson Controls more than ten years ago. If anyone has any questions about our products, I'll do my best to answer them.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries
Jim;
Were the pre-'08 ones made here, in the USA (instead of Mexico), as that seems to be the time which coincides with the "problems" most claim to have with their Red Tops??
Do you have conscientious Q.C. inspectors (AND even check up on/keep after THEM periodically) in your Mexico based plant(s) to try and regainreclaim that GREAT rep of the past that everyone on here seems to be dissing lately?
I currently have a Mexico-built Red Top (9/09 build date) in my car, and so far it seems to be perfect.
Likewise, we still manufacture all of our own products in our own facility and they are the only batteries produced there. We never re-label or re-spec our products for our retail partners and the quality of our products has continued to improve, since we were acquired by Johnson Controls more than ten years ago. If anyone has any questions about our products, I'll do my best to answer them.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries
Jim;
Were the pre-'08 ones made here, in the USA (instead of Mexico), as that seems to be the time which coincides with the "problems" most claim to have with their Red Tops??
Do you have conscientious Q.C. inspectors (AND even check up on/keep after THEM periodically) in your Mexico based plant(s) to try and regainreclaim that GREAT rep of the past that everyone on here seems to be dissing lately?
I currently have a Mexico-built Red Top (9/09 build date) in my car, and so far it seems to be perfect.
Thanks for everyones input on AGM batteries. I have never used an AGM but have been curious as to why the warranties aren't (much) longer for the price. I see that one of the Die Hard AGMs has a 4yr replacement with the pro-rated portion similar to the conventional batteries.
Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
If you buy an AGM don't buy an Optima, you'll get more battery for the money by buying Exide or Deka.
Agreed, with explanation.
Those who suggest a lower quality for Johnson Controls (Optima) AGM batteries are off the mark, I think. But (1) the "aura" surrounding the Optima trademark allows Johnson Controls to charge a higher price, which, I think, makes them a lesser value than other AGM batteries; and (2) the spiral-wound "six-pack" design of Optima batteries wastes a significant portion of the (always) rectangular footprint within which the battery must be mounted underhood, and flat-plate batteries, such as the Deka and Carquest-branded Deka AGM batteries, are better values for the money therefore. See the last half of the thread's topic line.
If you buy an AGM don't buy an Optima, you'll get more battery for the money by buying Exide or Deka.
Agreed, with explanation.
Those who suggest a lower quality for Johnson Controls (Optima) AGM batteries are off the mark, I think. But (1) the "aura" surrounding the Optima trademark allows Johnson Controls to charge a higher price, which, I think, makes them a lesser value than other AGM batteries; and (2) the spiral-wound "six-pack" design of Optima batteries wastes a significant portion of the (always) rectangular footprint within which the battery must be mounted underhood, and flat-plate batteries, such as the Deka and Carquest-branded Deka AGM batteries, are better values for the money therefore. See the last half of the thread's topic line.
dailydriver, I appreciate your questions. While there was some crossover between the two production facilities, it is generally safe to say that batteries produced before 2008 were built in Aurora. The bottom line is that we didn't build a brand-new, state-of-the-art facility to cut corners, we did it to make a better product. That facility was built using Six Sigma methodology and is ISO 14000 certified for environmental management and ISO/TS 16949 for quality management.
Unlike brands that use third-party manufacturers to produce products to their specifications, we own this factory and the people who work there are our employees. Our parent corporation, Johnson Controls, is very conservative in their approach to business and fully-understands Optima's position as the leader in the automotive AGM aftermarket. I've read varous theories and I understand that personal experiences can vary, but the quality of our products has never been better.
It does cost more money to use pure lead, which is why so many other AGM products are moving to recycled lead. It doesn't perform as well or last as long as pure lead, but it is still better than a flooded battery (which also probably uses recycled lead). At the risk of sounding like a battery nerd, our grid alloy is one of the most corrosion-resistant alloys in production. The high purity of the alloy and it's simple, binary composition also minimizes gas generation. Typical wet or flat-plate AGM batteries use grid alloys that contain three or four elements, which results in lower overall purity and gassing characteristics that are not as good as Optima's binary lead alloy. As a result, Optima batteries will have less corrosion at elevated temperatures and less water loss, when compared to conventional wet or flat-plate AGM products.
Our SpiralCell design has about 30 internal parts, where traditional flat-plate batteries can have more than 120 internal components. One of our internal components is a continuous cast strap, which joins adjacent cells and eliminates welds, which add resistance and corrosion points between the cells. A cast strap is unique to Optima, proprietary, more expensive, and more difficult to manufacture, but it is a process that gives superior performance. A larger and/or better-designed, manufactured or connected strap will allow better high-current flow due to lower internal resistance, which can be reflected in the CCA rating. This also allows the Optima design to use taller cells, which results in more active material.
Most batteries will never be used anywhere near to their full potential, spending most of their lifespan within 20% of a full state of charge. Of all the folks who use our batteries, I don't know of any who will discharge them more deeply and more often, while having more money on the line, than tournament anglers. When $500,000 is at stake, it's not about free batteries from sponsors, it's about using products that they know will continue working when they need it most. If there were concerns about the capacity of our batteries or reliability, no one in competitive fishing, let alone guys like Chris Lane and Edwin Evers, would go near our products, even if we paid them.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries
Unlike brands that use third-party manufacturers to produce products to their specifications, we own this factory and the people who work there are our employees. Our parent corporation, Johnson Controls, is very conservative in their approach to business and fully-understands Optima's position as the leader in the automotive AGM aftermarket. I've read varous theories and I understand that personal experiences can vary, but the quality of our products has never been better.
It does cost more money to use pure lead, which is why so many other AGM products are moving to recycled lead. It doesn't perform as well or last as long as pure lead, but it is still better than a flooded battery (which also probably uses recycled lead). At the risk of sounding like a battery nerd, our grid alloy is one of the most corrosion-resistant alloys in production. The high purity of the alloy and it's simple, binary composition also minimizes gas generation. Typical wet or flat-plate AGM batteries use grid alloys that contain three or four elements, which results in lower overall purity and gassing characteristics that are not as good as Optima's binary lead alloy. As a result, Optima batteries will have less corrosion at elevated temperatures and less water loss, when compared to conventional wet or flat-plate AGM products.
Our SpiralCell design has about 30 internal parts, where traditional flat-plate batteries can have more than 120 internal components. One of our internal components is a continuous cast strap, which joins adjacent cells and eliminates welds, which add resistance and corrosion points between the cells. A cast strap is unique to Optima, proprietary, more expensive, and more difficult to manufacture, but it is a process that gives superior performance. A larger and/or better-designed, manufactured or connected strap will allow better high-current flow due to lower internal resistance, which can be reflected in the CCA rating. This also allows the Optima design to use taller cells, which results in more active material.
Most batteries will never be used anywhere near to their full potential, spending most of their lifespan within 20% of a full state of charge. Of all the folks who use our batteries, I don't know of any who will discharge them more deeply and more often, while having more money on the line, than tournament anglers. When $500,000 is at stake, it's not about free batteries from sponsors, it's about using products that they know will continue working when they need it most. If there were concerns about the capacity of our batteries or reliability, no one in competitive fishing, let alone guys like Chris Lane and Edwin Evers, would go near our products, even if we paid them.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries
Originally Posted By: martinq
The Hawker Odyssey AGM batteries are superior in many ways to a typical wet-cell. I've just swapped to my second one after using the first one for 9 years. I don't see how spending money on a wet-cell is a good decision unless you're only interested in a cheap/quick fix. I had the Odyssey battery so long that I swapped it into my next vehicle.
Smaller/lighter
- degrades less with time so you don't need to oversize nearly as much
- use an Odyssey of 1/4 to 1/2 the CCA of your OE battery
No corrosive off-gassing
- cables don't go bad
- metal won't corrode
- no chance of explosion
Shipping is easy
- no hazardous concerns, charges, handling
Mounting is easy
- any orientation
- anywhere you want
More useful power
- the voltage output tends to be more stable and droops less than wet-cells.
- will rebound from multiple complete discharges no-problem
So with all these benefits I have also saved 9 years of fuel transporting 25lbs less weight around. AGM (if done right) is a win-win-win scenario. Would highly recommend.
I'm sold on the Odysseys too. And they do outlast the cars. The first one I bought new, a PC 925 and it is still in a car. Not the original one. I bought a new one for the lawn mower PC 525 and it doesn't even need a boost in the spring. I bought another PC 925 off ebay used. It was dead as a door nail as it had been sitting for two years and was never used.
I charged it up slowly and now it's been in my newer car for 4 years now.
Thinking of going to a lithium one for the next battery though.
The Hawker Odyssey AGM batteries are superior in many ways to a typical wet-cell. I've just swapped to my second one after using the first one for 9 years. I don't see how spending money on a wet-cell is a good decision unless you're only interested in a cheap/quick fix. I had the Odyssey battery so long that I swapped it into my next vehicle.
Smaller/lighter
- degrades less with time so you don't need to oversize nearly as much
- use an Odyssey of 1/4 to 1/2 the CCA of your OE battery
No corrosive off-gassing
- cables don't go bad
- metal won't corrode
- no chance of explosion
Shipping is easy
- no hazardous concerns, charges, handling
Mounting is easy
- any orientation
- anywhere you want
More useful power
- the voltage output tends to be more stable and droops less than wet-cells.
- will rebound from multiple complete discharges no-problem
So with all these benefits I have also saved 9 years of fuel transporting 25lbs less weight around. AGM (if done right) is a win-win-win scenario. Would highly recommend.
I'm sold on the Odysseys too. And they do outlast the cars. The first one I bought new, a PC 925 and it is still in a car. Not the original one. I bought a new one for the lawn mower PC 525 and it doesn't even need a boost in the spring. I bought another PC 925 off ebay used. It was dead as a door nail as it had been sitting for two years and was never used.
I charged it up slowly and now it's been in my newer car for 4 years now.
Thinking of going to a lithium one for the next battery though.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Thinking of going to a lithium one for the next battery though.
^^^Are ANY of these below $1000.00 yet?!?!
But yes, IF I had the coin, and a Z06/ZR1 I was looking to drop EVERY SINGLE GRAM off of, I would invest in one of these given how they are the lightest electrical power source out there right now.
(I would even spend the extra green to get the REAL carbon fiber cased ones.
)
Thinking of going to a lithium one for the next battery though.
^^^Are ANY of these below $1000.00 yet?!?!
But yes, IF I had the coin, and a Z06/ZR1 I was looking to drop EVERY SINGLE GRAM off of, I would invest in one of these given how they are the lightest electrical power source out there right now.
OptimaJim, Thanks for your posts about Optima battery.
I believe that Optima was one of the best, if not the best, batteries 9-10 years ago, then many complaints about battery failures in less than 2-3 years started to surface on internet 7-8 years ago.
One of my cars has battery under rear seat, I thought about Optima when I replaced the original OEM battery 6-7 years ago, but with so many complaint I replaced with standard flood battery. Also, warranty on Optima battery is not so good, only 2 years free replacement.
I believe that Optima was one of the best, if not the best, batteries 9-10 years ago, then many complaints about battery failures in less than 2-3 years started to surface on internet 7-8 years ago.
One of my cars has battery under rear seat, I thought about Optima when I replaced the original OEM battery 6-7 years ago, but with so many complaint I replaced with standard flood battery. Also, warranty on Optima battery is not so good, only 2 years free replacement.
HTSS_TR, there are a lot of factors that play into what is being posted and read on the Internet. The fact is, you weren't talking about batteries on this board nine to ten years ago and I was only registered on a handful of boards that long ago myself. Now, I'm probably registered on a dozen different boards just for Corvettes and probably more than 1,500 in total.
There are more conversations about Optima online, both good and bad, because we sell more automotive AGM batteries than everyone else combined. As I've been following battery conversations for several years, there is not a brand or manufacturer out there that doesn't have detractors. I've lost count of the number of times I've read posts by people who swear at brand A and swear by brand B, without knowing both batteries are made by the same manufacturer, on the same line.
The truth is, many of the "bad" batteries returned to us under warranty are just deeply-discharged and work fine, when properly-recharged. This is not unique to us and since you mentioned our warranty (it is three years free replacement, not two), I would encourage you to read the warranty language on some of the other brands mentioned in this thread (you can read our warranty here)
Some other warranties are voided if your charging system doesn't operate within a specific voltage range or your battery has been discharged below a minimum voltage level. In reality, there's probably nothing wrong with batteries from manufacturers that void their warranty coverage because they fall outside those parameters- they're probably just deeply-discharged as well. However, adding such exclusions helps them cut down on unnecessary warranty claims, although I don't know who that make their customers feel.
We'd rather take a pro-active approach in explaining battery technology and help folks recover deeply-discharged batteries, instead of seeing them tossed needlessly onto the recycling heap. Regardless of whether you are using an AGM or flooded battery in your vehicle, if it is located under your rear seat, it should be properly-vented to the outside air.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries
There are more conversations about Optima online, both good and bad, because we sell more automotive AGM batteries than everyone else combined. As I've been following battery conversations for several years, there is not a brand or manufacturer out there that doesn't have detractors. I've lost count of the number of times I've read posts by people who swear at brand A and swear by brand B, without knowing both batteries are made by the same manufacturer, on the same line.
The truth is, many of the "bad" batteries returned to us under warranty are just deeply-discharged and work fine, when properly-recharged. This is not unique to us and since you mentioned our warranty (it is three years free replacement, not two), I would encourage you to read the warranty language on some of the other brands mentioned in this thread (you can read our warranty here)
Some other warranties are voided if your charging system doesn't operate within a specific voltage range or your battery has been discharged below a minimum voltage level. In reality, there's probably nothing wrong with batteries from manufacturers that void their warranty coverage because they fall outside those parameters- they're probably just deeply-discharged as well. However, adding such exclusions helps them cut down on unnecessary warranty claims, although I don't know who that make their customers feel.
We'd rather take a pro-active approach in explaining battery technology and help folks recover deeply-discharged batteries, instead of seeing them tossed needlessly onto the recycling heap. Regardless of whether you are using an AGM or flooded battery in your vehicle, if it is located under your rear seat, it should be properly-vented to the outside air.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries
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