Full Synthetic and ZDDP.

[Pig]

Hello everyone, name's Pig and this is the first post. I have a mild modified Chevrolet SB 350. I have a more aggressive cam over stock that also has the correct valve springs for the application. It's a flat tappet cam with hydraulic lifters. I run a high volume(not pressure) oil pump. I also have timing gears(not chain) in the front.

I am almost finished with the break in of this engine. Used the Comp Cams 10W30 Break In Oil. I am a huge fan of synthetic oils as all my other vehicles have it and perform wonderfully with it.

As I was researching parts and consulting with my local speed shop I was made aware that since I am using a flat tappet cam that it would be best to use ZDDP additives every oil change(which I am not opposed to doing). However I can not find any oil lists where it tells me what synthetics are compatible with ZDDP. I know the Valvoline VR1 has it but its only 20W50 and I would like to start it in the winter when its below 20F.

So my question is what Full synthetic oils in the 10W30 or 10W40 range can be successfully mated with the ZDDP and still not destroy the lifters?

Please note: I have read that this site has a lot of Pennzoil fans. I am not a fan of this brand and had many engines overhauled cause of the use of this oil. So please no Pennzoil is great oil mantras. I know what that oil does and wish not to have my engine succomb to the same fate.

Thanks in advance to those who reply.

 

[Thax]

Amsoil Z-Rod would be a ideal oil for your engine 10w-30 viscosity and high levels of ZDDP. With this oil there is no need for a ZDDP additive, it has more than you need already . Adding anything to the oil would just mess up the chemistry AMsoil has formulated. BTW Pennzoil is a fine oil ,always has been . Either you have heard wrong or proper maintenance wasnt performed.

 

[Bandito440]

There are plenty of oils that have enough ZDDP for this application. Amsoil Z-Rod has tons of it. So does Mobil 1 Racing. Rotella T6 and Red Line oils have plenty too. Just use the right oil and you won't need any additives.

 

[Clevy]

Quaker state defy would work for you,as well as Amsoil makes an oil called z-rod but the cream of the crop for zddp is the brand red-line.
Before jumping on the synthetic bandwagon I suggest reading the articles written by dnewton on the home page.
First off consider how the engine will be operated and under what weather conditions. Most every sbc engine will do just fine on a 30 grade oil. Now if it's a summer car a 10w-30 shows great used oil analysis' and if you are going to use syn Amsoil's sso line shows to be nearly shear proof in even the most demanding applications.
I like the pennzoil line of oils. I'm using pennzoil platinum in my hemi right now and have no issues whatsoever.
Do you have an oil cooler. If so I would consider trying a 20 grade. As pong as you have 10 pounds per 1000 rpms of oil pressure that's more than adequate. Remember your oil pressure gauge shows how resistant to flow your oil is and thinner oil actually has more volume going through the engine at any given speed.
I think we need to know more about how this engine will be operated before an accurate and suitable recommendation can be had.
But in a performance engine I would go with royal purples hps line. It has elevated zddp levels and red-line is another fine choice however you could be just as well served with pennzoil yellow bottle.
Remember,synthetics don't really shine unless you are extending the oil change interval or you are putting the engine under serious stress,like auto-cross,or it will be operated in extreme cold. Otherwise,as dnewton's articles show,a conventional will be more than enough protection.
You really should read the articles on the front home page. They will bring you to a point of actually understanding what alot of our members are going to say. They will help you to know what the heck these guys are saying,and they are a wealth of info.

And welcome to bitog.

 

[Pig]

Amsoil is not available in my area and I am of the impatient type not to wait for oil to be snail mailed on the back of a 3 legged horse just cause they deem engine oil to be hazmat.

I know there are various engine oils out there that have the ZDDP in it, but it's more scarce than hens teeth. Hence why I am looking for a compatible full synthetic that will blend well with the ZDDP.

As an ASE Master Cert Tech with Factory Certs, I can tell you from personal exp. that Pennzoil was the sole cause of launched engines due to excessive wax build up. The VW/Audi 1.8Turbos do not like this oil and I have seen wax build up on the heads and I worked at a dealer where we had over 180 engines nuke. About 10% were Pennzoil cars based off of maintenance records and VW engineers said it wasn't oil but wax. Personally rebuilding engines cause of Pennzoil has made me distrust the brand.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Bandito440
There are plenty of oils that have enough ZDDP for this application. Amsoil Z-Rod has tons of it. So does Mobil 1 Racing. Rotella T6 and Red Line oils have plenty too. Just use the right oil and you won't need any additives.

Racing oils are made for racing and lack the proper amount of detergency for common driving.
I agree with the other recommendations however once the engine is broken in is the extra zddp even required.
And rotella diesel oils have lots of zddp at a far better price and I'd bet if properly maintained the engines longevity would be near equal,the service schedule is the key. If running a syn it doesn't pay off unless the interval is lengthened. They don't protect any better than conventional,they protect for longer,except under extreme circumstances and operating condition.
Jmo

 

[BobsArmory]

Originally Posted By: Bandito440
There are plenty of oils that have enough ZDDP for this application. Amsoil Z-Rod has tons of it. So does Mobil 1 Racing. Rotella T6 and Red Line oils have plenty too. Just use the right oil and you won't need any additives.


Yep, Amsoil Z-Rod is great stuff along with Red Line oils. Buy with confidence. I've also had good results with Shell Rotella T6 5w-40. Don't worry about additives, just buy the right oil for the application.

 

[Pig]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Quaker state defy would work for you,as well as Amsoil makes an oil called z-rod but the cream of the crop for zddp is the brand red-line.
Before jumping on the synthetic bandwagon I suggest reading the articles written by dnewton on the home page.
First off consider how the engine will be operated and under what weather conditions. Most every sbc engine will do just fine on a 30 grade oil. Now if it's a summer car a 10w-30 shows great used oil analysis' and if you are going to use syn Amsoil's sso line shows to be nearly shear proof in even the most demanding applications.
I like the pennzoil line of oils. I'm using pennzoil platinum in my hemi right now and have no issues whatsoever.
Do you have an oil cooler. If so I would consider trying a 20 grade. As pong as you have 10 pounds per 1000 rpms of oil pressure that's more than adequate. Remember your oil pressure gauge shows how resistant to flow your oil is and thinner oil actually has more volume going through the engine at any given speed.
I think we need to know more about how this engine will be operated before an accurate and suitable recommendation can be had.
But in a performance engine I would go with royal purples hps line. It has elevated zddp levels and red-line is another fine choice however you could be just as well served with pennzoil yellow bottle.
Remember,synthetics don't really shine unless you are extending the oil change interval or you are putting the engine under serious stress,like auto-cross,or it will be operated in extreme cold. Otherwise,as dnewton's articles show,a conventional will be more than enough protection.
You really should read the articles on the front home page. They will bring you to a point of actually understanding what alot of our members are going to say. They will help you to know what the heck these guys are saying,and they are a wealth of info.

And welcome to bitog.



It's a torque truck. 330hp, 550ft lbs torque. Used to haul between 2000-5000 in the bed, hauling a triple axle horse trailer. Temperature swings from -10 to 110 sea level to 10000 ft. Synthetic oil resists the breakdown a lil better than conventional hence why its used in my other vehicles. My vehicles are driven hard.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Pig
Amsoil is not available in my area and I am of the impatient type not to wait for oil to be snail mailed on the back of a 3 legged horse just cause they deem engine oil to be hazmat.

I know there are various engine oils out there that have the ZDDP in it, but it's more scarce than hens teeth. Hence why I am looking for a compatible full synthetic that will blend well with the ZDDP.

As an ASE Master Cert Tech with Factory Certs, I can tell you from personal exp. that Pennzoil was the sole cause of launched engines due to excessive wax build up. The VW/Audi 1.8Turbos do not like this oil and I have seen wax build up on the heads and I worked at a dealer where we had over 180 engines nuke. About 10% were Pennzoil cars based off of maintenance records and VW engineers said it wasn't oil but wax. Personally rebuilding engines cause of Pennzoil has made me distrust the brand.


Most full synthetics have restricted Zinc contents due to exahaust system related approvals. You will find it easier to use a part synthetic classic car or race oil that already has a high Zinc content.
I agree some of the Audi engine troubles were caused by using cheap oil combined with too long an OCI, but I think the engines that failed were mostly from cars that spent far too long in traffic, which should have been classified as severe service and a 50% OCI used.
Most Audis did not suffer from the same problems in the EU, but the dealers did not use US oil brands and took into account the cars useage. For the record I never use any oil that is not made by Castrol, Liqui Moly, Mobil, Shell or BP. I might consider Volvoline at at push, but if you want to use long OCI's it is quality that counts and you need lots of detergent in a long life oil.

 

[Bandito440]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Bandito440
There are plenty of oils that have enough ZDDP for this application. Amsoil Z-Rod has tons of it. So does Mobil 1 Racing. Rotella T6 and Red Line oils have plenty too. Just use the right oil and you won't need any additives.

Racing oils are made for racing and lack the proper amount of detergency for common driving.

While that may be true for some oils, the Mobil 1 Racing has a good shot of detergents and a healthy TBN.

Still, if it were me, I'd use Rotella T6 for its availability and price. I imagine the 1200 ppm of zinc would provide adequate protection. I wouldn't bother with any extra additives. Just use good oil in the first place. T6 has everything in it that you'll need.

As far as wax deposits from Pennzoil destroying Audi motors, I don't buy it. The Pennzoil wax deposit story seems to be a holdover from my father's generation. I tend to agree that running average oils for far too long in turbocharged Audis was/is the reason for failures.

 

[Turk]

Originally Posted By: Pig
Amsoil is not available in my area and I am of the impatient type not to wait for oil to be snail mailed on the back of a 3 legged horse just cause they deem engine oil to be hazmat.



Run it by Pablo (here on BITOG), he should be able to get it to you no problem. I also run Z-Rod in my GTO.

 

[ArtDart]

Royal Purple HPS 10w30 is another option

 

[Rob_Roy]

Any 10w-30 HDEO would be fine for this application...so would Amsoil Zrod, Brad Penn, Royal Purple, etc...they all make 10w-30 with more ZDDP than your average passenger car oil. If you are not one to wait for an oil delivery, why don't you keep more in stock? Buy your oil by the pail, get a better price, and have what you need when you need it.

Short story - I built an SBC in 2006 with a "bottom of the page" flat tappet cam. I don't remember the exact specs, but it was about .500" of lift with a massive set of double springs...it was run with 6500 rpm shift points, and I used "straight from the drum" 15w-40 with no additives. After a few years of racing I changed the intake and pulled a few lifters for inspection, everything looked perfect. Based on that experience, I would not bother with any additives in your application. You stand a greater chance of negatively impacting the balance of additives than improving it.

 

[partspro]

My 2 cents, Pennzoil HAD issues with wax back in the day, not any more. I worked Commercial Sales and some accounts would not buy Pennzoil but would buy QS.. comes out of the same facility!! I'm a fan of using what the manufacturer recommends, and the correct weight. So many 'old' school mechanics are telling folks to use 10-40 when the vehicle exceeds 100,000. Research using the net will find lots of oils high in ZDDP, Mobil if I recall specs the ZDDP levels on their website. Use caution with ZDDP additives, they are NOT as good as getting the ZDDP in the blend. Additionally, the push to ZDDP also came when soft cam blanks were the norm.

 

[Donald]

I get Amsoil to my door in 2 days. How much of a hurry are you in.

The OP is the first one to mention Pennzoil and wax buildup. At least that I have read. So maybe it was a problem way back, but not anymore.

 

[Astro14]

Speed shop has you overly worried...and you're subscribing to their old wive's tales both about Pennzoil and about flat-tappet cams...

Any good HDEO will have have enough ZDDP to keep your cam in good shape...that's about 1200 PPM. There is evidence to suggest that too much ZDDP is actually worse for engine and cam lobe wear...I think the Amsoil Z-rod is up around 1500 PPM...

Personally? Best of both worlds? The Amsoil is a tailor-made product designed for your application....that would be the best choice...but if you insist on something that you can get at Wal-Mart, I would run the Rotella T6 (synthetic 5W40 HDEO, good ZDDP levels, and reasonably cheap)...

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Thirded on the T6! Cheaper than amsoil, too

 

[kmrcstintn]

Rotella T-6 10w-30 or 5w-40...hdeo's work in alot of different applications without paying more money for a tailored product

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: kmrcstintn
Rotella T-6 10w-30 or 5w-40...hdeo's work in alot of different applications without paying more money for a tailored product


There is no such thing as RT6 10w30. There is 10w30 T-5 which is a synthetic blend. It's good stuff.

 

[DWC28]

Since about 30% of cars on the road use Pennzoil, it seems like good deal that only 10% of the failure were with Pennzoil.