Toyota 0W20 (Mobil) Misgivings

[Falken]

Hey guys, sorry about this but I just want to say that I am looking to change my oil from the AWESOME Idemitsu 0W20 soon.

Idemitsu has given me a quiet engine and smooth performance and felt like QSUD 5W20.

I would like to run another 0W20 but I only have Toyota 0W20 next.

But everywhere I read, the UOA's for ALL Mobil products are very spotty. Either they are awesome or show tons of copper, iron, and lead in the UOA. And usually 1-2 of the three with one wear metal very low. Then you'll see a spotless UOA, less than 4ppm across the board for all wear metals with maybe a 7ppm for iron. Odd.

My TRUSTED motor oils right now are PP, QSUD, and Idemitsu. I'd like to trust Exxon (Mobil) products but feel they are very inconsistent.

I am graduating soon, and currently working, and my stance right now on Toyota 0W20 is I'd absolutely love to trade the stuff for PYB 5W20 if it were easy. Exxon isn't anywhere near the addpack of Sopus (Shell) or Idemitsu by a long shot for a wide gamut of vehicles.

I would like your hands on opinion for or against Toyota 0W20. I am not convinced. I want to feel good about running this oil but don't want to feel like I am damaging a Honda engine that currently burns NO oil at all. Help me use this oil with confidence or confidently give it away.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Falken
Hey guys, sorry about this but I just want to say that I am looking to change my oil from the AWESOME Idemitsu 0W20 soon.

Idemitsu has given me a quiet engine and smooth performance and felt like QSUD 5W20.

I would like to run another 0W20 but I only have Toyota 0W20 next.

But everywhere I read, the UOA's for ALL Mobil products are very spotty. Either they are awesome or show tons of copper, iron, and lead in the UOA. And usually 1-2 of the three with one wear metal very low. Then you'll see a spotless UOA, less than 4ppm across the board for all wear metals with maybe a 7ppm for iron. Odd.

My TRUSTED motor oils right now are PP, QSUD, and Idemitsu. I'd like to trust Exxon (Mobil) products but feel they are very inconsistent.

I am graduating soon, and currently working, and my stance right now on Toyota 0W20 is I'd absolutely love to trade the stuff for PYB 5W20 if it were easy. Exxon isn't anywhere near the addpack of Sopus (Shell) or Idemitsu by a long shot for a wide gamut of vehicles.

I would like your hands on opinion for or against Toyota 0W20. I am not convinced. I want to feel good about running this oil but don't want to feel like I am damaging a Honda engine that currently burns NO oil at all. Help me use this oil with confidence or confidently give it away.


Infineum, which makes the add packs for SOPUS products is co-owned by ExxonMobil. So your comment regarding them not having anywhere near the additive packages is out to lunch. What are you basing this on? The extremely limited information you glean from UOA's?

 

[mva]

Use Toyota 0W20 with no worries.

Mobil 1 improved significantly when they came out with the SN formulations and the M1 0W20 AFE has many great UOA's. 7 ppm of iron is nothing.

 

[LeakySeals]

CATERHAM has written many detailed posts about TGMO 0w20. Search for them. UOA's are always going to have different results, even on the same engine. Its like a blood sample, unique to each engine's health and the conditions it operates in. Check the recent XOM SN UOA's. Iron levels the same as any other oil.

 

[Falken]

I thought that I read that Lubrizol made the add pack for Shell...

I read an interesting wiki about them, they were around for a LONG time, made add packs during WWII to help with the war effort.

The Toyota 0W20 that I have is SN formulation.

 

[Clevy]

If your that concerned then don't use it. I'm sure you would have no trouble at all getting rid of it to any one of us bitogers. Heck I'll take it off your hands if you want to do some kind of trade. I'd like to give it a shot in my hemi. Pm me.
And as far as the uoa with higher wear metals that is completely application dependent and a few ppm is not going to affect the longevity of any modern motor. You would have to test a specific engine with consistent driving habits many hundreds of thousands of miles to properly establish trends and by then the doors have rotted off the car the motor is in or the wheels have fallen off.
Dnewton wrote a very informative article about wear metals and wear. He has many hundreds of uoa that he based the article on. Try to find it,it's incredibly informative.
I'm no fan of Mobil whatsoever any more however I do trust the product they produce. I suspect the driving habits and conditions have more to do with the elevated wear metals in the uoa you are referring to than the oil used and I would venture a guess that those uoa would have had high wear metals regardless of oil choice. I'm not saying that every single one would have elevated wear metals however I think most would be driving habits and conditions.
I'd love for tig to do a few uoa. His regiment has been basically the same,using the same oil and changing it at relatively the same mileage so he could give some insight with the data gleaned from his uoa.
Hey tig,hook us up. The data would be interesting to see.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Falken
I thought that I read that Lubrizol made the add pack for Shell...

I read an interesting wiki about them, they were around for a LONG time, made add packs during WWII to help with the war effort.

The Toyota 0W20 that I have is SN formulation.


No, Infineum is the joint venture between SOPUS and XOM, and subsequently the source for their additive packages. Of course XOM also has XOM Chemical as a separate contributor as well, which they use for Esters, AN's....etc.

 

[Falken]

Thanks guys. Knowing that Mobil and Pennzoil use the same source for add packs (at least for SN) makes me feel a lot better about using these 4 bottles of Toyota 0W20 SN.

Glad I posted here and will be more interested to try this stuff out now.

Thanks!!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Falken
Thanks guys. Knowing that Mobil and Pennzoil use the same source for add packs (at least for SN) makes me feel a lot better about using these 4 bottles of Toyota 0W20 SN.

Glad I posted here and will be more interested to try this stuff out now.

Thanks!!


FYI:

Originally Posted By: infineum

Infineum Worldwide Joint Venture Open for Business
1/15/1999 - Infineum Worldwide Joint Venture Open for Business

Infineum, the new petroleum additives enterprise, a joint venture between Exxon Chemical, Shell International Chemicals Ltd and Shell Chemical Company, unveiled its new corporate identity and became fully operational on 1 January 1999.

Infineum has approximately 2,000 employees worldwide; R&D facilities in the UK, US, Japan and Singapore; manufacturing plants in 19 countries; and sales and marketing representation in a further fifty. The new enterprise comprises three specific business units - Crankcase Lubricant Additives, Fuel Additives and Speciality Lubricant additives.

"Infineum brings together people, technologies and products to offer customers a broader, more flexible product range, supported by worldwide research and development facilities," said Tony Gaskell, president and chief executive officer of Infineum, "and the new corporate identity was designed to reflect these benefits," he continued.

The new logo comprises the company name and a graphic displaying curves designed to create a symbolic ripple effect. The interlocking 'ripples' represent the fusion of people and technologies from two leading additives businesses into a new and exciting global additives enterprise. They also highlight the close partnerships which Infineum will forge with its customers as part of its key aim to lead the way in total customer satisfaction.

"We aim to ensure that Infineum's customers enjoy only the very best of Paramins and Shell Additives and, as such, will recognise Infineum as a vital, stimulating and independent new force within the additives market," said Gaskell.

Note to Journalists:

Exxon Chemical Company is a division of Exxon Corporation. Shell Petroleum Company Limited and Shell Chemical Company are members of the Royal Dutch/Shell Group of companies.

Petroleum additives include both lubricant and fuel additives. Lubricant additives are used primarily in the lubrication of automative, marine and heavy duty diesel engines where they help to reduce engine wear, disperse sludge and minimise troublesome deposits. Fuel additives also improve the operation of gasoline and diesel engines. Several speciality additives provide improved properties to automatic transmission fluids, gear oils and industrial oils.

Customers are oil companies and other lubricant marketers which use petroleum additives to produce finished lubricants and fuels.


Source:
http://www.infineum.com/Pages/news19990115.aspx

 

[Gokhan]

Come on, you're talking of using PYB dino. Both TGMO dino and TGMO synthetic oils are better than PYB dino, especially the synthetic of course.

Infineum is coowned by ExxonMobil and Shell. Then, there is Chevron's Oronite and the independent additive companies like Lubrizol and Afton. However, oil companies use additive packs from different additive companies. The cheaper oil line Mobil Super uses Afton liquid-titanium pack for example.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Too many superlatives in this thread.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Come on, you're talking of using PYB dino. Both TGMO dino and TGMO synthetic oils are better than PYB dino, especially the synthetic of course.


How is TGMO conventional "better" than Pennzoil conventional?

I remember your post of a PYB VOA a year or so back. You thought it was the bees' knees back then.

 

[KitaCam]

Three different Toyo dealers use three different (bulk) conventional 5w-30 oil...PYB, Castrol, and Mobil....none I've yet spoken to use a TGMO labeled conventional oil.
As for synthetic, they all use TGMO 0w-20.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Too many superlatives in this thread.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Come on, you're talking of using PYB dino. Both TGMO dino and TGMO synthetic oils are better than PYB dino, especially the synthetic of course.


How is TGMO conventional "better" than Pennzoil conventional?

I remember your post of a PYB VOA a year or so back. You thought it was the bees' knees back then.

I was excited about the high moly levels of PYB when I did a VOA on it. However, it looks like moly used in PYB is not the Infineum trinuclear (trimer) kind and modest levels (50 - 100 ppm) of trinuclear moly are more effective than the high those of moly in PYB.

Shell oil products performed consistently poorly in these tests:

The two Toyota oils both performed very well:

 

[KrisZ]

I didn't know that the oil just sits and boils in the engine.
Ohh, and since we're talking about relevant tests, how did Toyota oil perform on the one arm bandit?

 

[CATERHAM]

Many premium oils including Red Line left high deposits in those very unrealistic 700C high temperature tests.
In fact the method used has been universally panned.
The following is our own Tom NJ remarks on the test:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2825840&page=3

 

[LeakySeals]

Could engine hot spots exceed the temps that cause an engine to overheat? Any idea what the max temps of hot spots could be? Around the pistons for example.

 

[buster]

Those tests are useless.

 

[martinq]

I'll throw the comment from Tom NJ here:

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: OpelFever
While I agree with everything you posted, I would like some kind of rational explanation as to why some of the oils left almost no residue while others left a lot of burned sludge? Eventhough there may be no relevance to actual engine operation, it's odd that similarly specced oils react so differently to heat. As far as marketing goes, I don't think the test favoured any brand or specific oil and was more of an armchair science project.

700°F is beyond the thermal stability on many components in motor oil, and the rate of oxidation is thousands of time higher than what an engine sees. The chemical reactions that take place under these conditions bear no resemblance to the reactions taking place in an engine. An additive that out performs all others in an engine may fall apart at 700°F, but who cares if it never sees those temperatures. If you ran the test at 1,000°F for ten hours, all of the oils would turn to carbon, but that doesn't mean they are all the same.

My marketing comment refers to companies that use non-standard tests to promote their products.

Tom NJ

 

[FoxS]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Could engine hot spots exceed the temps that cause an engine to overheat? Any idea what the max temps of hot spots could be? Around the pistons for example.


The cylinder head on the sludging Toyota V6 was measured at 260 to 270 degrees while the block ran at between 190 to 210. This happened because the coolant passages in the head gaskets were reduced in size.

The temp differential was enough to cause sludge. The coolant / engine design should keep the heat differential between cylinder heads and engine block no more than 15 degrees

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: Falken

I would like your hands on opinion for or against Toyota 0W20.


My best results with Toyota V6 and I-4 engines are Pennzoil Platinum or Quaker State Ultimate Durability...since both are sold at WalMart and get very good rebates...why bother with the rest? I use the Toyota oil when they give them to me for free like with Toyota Care where you get 5 oil changes with the new car. That's it.