Shooting at Connecticut Elementary School

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Originally Posted By: Spazdog



Charles Whitman was a Marine.
David Berkowitz was a soldier.
Mark David Chapman was a Christian missionary.



All three were nuts.
 
Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
The violence is a symptom, guns or no guns. The problem is cultural. We see it in a border town here as plain as day. You seem so angry and panicky and prone to violence. Take away the guns and you'll be stabbing yourselves.

It is cultural. The vast majority of these nut cases want to be famous. They see all of the fame that previous nut cases get and they desire that.


If you do not mind me asking, Tempest and mechtech2: Presuming this guy had serious mental predilections towards violent behaviour from youth, and *given* that "people kill people, guns don't kill people"; what do you think it is that cultivates the sickness in this man's mind to the point where he does something like this? What things do you think are advisable for the surrounding community to do to either prevent the cultivation of violence or to deal with these people?


There is a common theme among most of the young men who do these senseless acts of murder: they are shy, probably somewhere on the very high end of the autism spectrum, they're very intelligent etc. They are "people stupid". Sheldon Cooper, if you will.

It's not drug dealers, gang members, and career criminals who are doing these mass school or mall shootings. They're kids who have been rejected by society because they clearly have mental health problems. In this kids case, the parents see that the kid can ace tests in school, he's brilliant at most things academia etc., but because of a lack of social development, he can't live up to his true intellectual potential and what his parents want him to do (ie, go to college, graduate with honors, go on to be the next Einstein) and he flipped out. Not making excuses; plenty of kids have dealt with the same problems and moved on and have lived productive lives up to their complete potential, but modern society has to come up with a better way of helping the quiet kids come out of their shells. I guess some of them just can't be saved. And then, like you say, there is the culture of violence in the US, and it's obviously a problem. The video games, the movies, the TV shows. You're right; as a US citizen, I agree that the violence in mass media has become epidemic.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
The violence is a symptom, guns or no guns. The problem is cultural. We see it in a border town here as plain as day. You seem so angry and panicky and prone to violence. Take away the guns and you'll be stabbing yourselves.

It is cultural. The vast majority of these nut cases want to be famous. They see all of the fame that previous nut cases get and they desire that.


If you do not mind me asking, Tempest and mechtech2: Presuming this guy had serious mental predilections towards violent behaviour from youth, and *given* that "people kill people, guns don't kill people"; what do you think it is that cultivates the sickness in this man's mind to the point where he does something like this? What things do you think are advisable for the surrounding community to do to either prevent the cultivation of violence or to deal with these people?


There is a common theme among most of the young men who do these senseless acts of murder: they are shy, probably somewhere on the very high end of the autism spectrum, they're very intelligent etc. They are "people stupid". Sheldon Cooper, if you will.

It's not drug dealers, gang members, and career criminals who are doing these mass school or mall shootings. They're kids who have been rejected by society because they clearly have mental health problems. In this kids case, the parents see that the kid can ace tests in school, he's brilliant at most things academia etc., but because of a lack of social development, he can't live up to his true intellectual potential and what his parents want him to do (ie, go to college, graduate with honors, go on to be the next Einstein) and he flipped out. Not making excuses; plenty of kids have dealt with the same problems and moved on and have lived productive lives up to their complete potential, but modern society has to come up with a better way of helping the quiet kids come out of their shells. I guess some of them just can't be saved. And then, like you say, there is the culture of violence in the US, and it's obviously a problem. The video games, the movies, the TV shows. You're right; as a US citizen, I agree that the violence in mass media has become epidemic.



Take away the every video OBSESSION from these kids.

Then, let the kids play outside. Make forts. Till a garden. Pick strawberries. Chase snakes in a field. Eat dinner together.

Most kids are soooooooo far away from how they should be brought up.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Originally Posted By: andyd
Root causes? Broken homes, single parents, daycare warehouses. A media establishment that gives these losers infamy. Go back 50 yrs, kids had a mother at home, neighborhood businesses to work at after school. We were kept busy and out of trouble. It was the logical extension of a societal pattern stretching back into prehistory. The family unit, the tribe. warts and all, didnt breed mass murderers. What has changed?

The age of the perps is a clue. Raging hormones. a culture of peaceful folk , who glorify violence in their entertainment? Too many rats in a cage?

I'm just tossing this out. Just asking questions to help me past this latest horror show. Also thanking my great fortune that I avoided this path. For I was an alienated, angry contrarian. a " troubled child " with "sociopathic tendencies" throughout my school yrs. I was a destructive brat. Perfect warrior stock. No war. Doh!


We must have been stitched from the same cloth. I've dealt with depression and mental health problems all my life, and thankfully, I got some people in my life to realize I was never destined to become the caricature they thought I would become in their own minds. A young professional with a nice house, a wife, 2.3 kids, HAPPY etc. (because much of my family life was a complete fallacy - my parents wanted what they weren't in many ways able to give me).

Instead of hurting other people, I tried finding my solutions by hurting myself (but in the end, that hurt any people as well) through addiction and the bottom of a bottle (it doesn't work). I could have made the choice to give up and try and kill people. I knew that would be no solution because I do in fact have many things I enjoy and people I love. Maybe it just boils down to the fact that some people are just crazy, and some of the crazies make the "decision" to murder. They are evil [censored] that took the easy way out (in their minds - I've heard [censored] sucks).
 
Last edited:
I cannot confirm the actual number of children (under 15) killed annually by accident, most often when they find a loaded gun. Google shows many..... at least several dozen and maybe much more. http://www.google.com/search?q=kids+accidentally+shot+by+guns&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial&client=firefox-a

I have to wonder if more citizens are armed, would the increased number of children killed accidently outnumber those killed in these massacres? Would the solution be worse than the problem?

The recent Pennsylvania case of the father shooting and killing his 7 year old son when putting away the gun in his truck made me think about this.

Just something to ponder (not interpret as "get rid of all guns"). I suppose gun safety needs to be addressed also.
 
Anti-gun people get real.

So, how many people die in vehicles every year?

So, what, they should ban vehicles?? Cars & Trucks can killing machines like guns, right??

C'mon.
 
Originally Posted By: 2004tdigls
the problem is simple, the USA is awash with firearms with high capacity magazines, and assault rifles that can trace their lineage to the M16,

America more resembles the horn of Africa than Canada or other western democracies

armor piercing rounds, devastating hollow point bullets can be purchased anywhere

it is also your constitution, I can't imagine when it was drawn up they envisioned semi automatic bushmaster rifles or handguns with 14 round capacities, they had muzzle loading rifles, a few shots a minute, not 8-10 bullets a second

this site is also full of NRA gun freedom lunatics who will say guns don't kill people, people do, they will say that a firearm is just as deadly as a pitchfork, rock or glass bottle

nonsense, you cant kill a person from 100 meters with a rock, it can easily be done with a 5.56 bushmaster

your "freedom" that the gun lunatics talk about costs the lives of over 12000 Americans every year, massacres are now commonplace

I expect these comments will be deleted or the NRA machine gun types will jump all over it

well so be it, until you guys are sick of the carnage and body bags this story will repeat itself time and time again in America


First of all, my sincerest condolences to the families and friends of those that were senselessly taken from them.

Now lets see, I don't think the problem is as simple as you would like us to think.

The world is awash in Planes. Maybe we need to ban Planes, so we don't have to suffer another Terrorist attack like 9/11.

There is lots of Fertilizer out there. Maybe we need to ban Fertilizer, so we don't have another Oklahoma City bombing.

The world is awash in Cars. Lots of innocent people are killed every year in Cars. Maybe we need to ban Cars.



The person that committed this act, at 20 years of age, couldn't legally own the guns he used. He stole the legally owned firearms from his Mother, and then killed her with them. He then stole her car, and drove to the school. Maybe if a large group of kids had been standing outside the School, he would've used the car and plowed into them, and killed just as many.

And by the way, despite the hysterical and dishonest ranting from some in the media and the anti-gun zealots, no "assault rifles" were used at the school. The shooter used two handguns.

Just yesterday, the same day as this tragedy in Connecticut, a man killed kids in a school in China, with a knife. There are more knives in the world, than there are guns. Surely knives should be banned.

Guns are tightly controlled in Norway, and yet a deranged lunatic still managed to kill 91 people in a shooting and bombing rampage, there.

Laws only affect the honest, moral, and decent people. Those people don't need laws to tell them that killing innocent people is wrong. Deranged, evil people intent on killing, don't care about laws or morality. After all, killing people is against the law too, and yet that doesn't stop them.

The problem is simply mentally deranged evil people, that are bent on death and destruction. The real question is how do we prevent these people from acting out their murderous intentions? Or getting to that mental state in the first place?
 
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: 2004tdigls
the problem is simple, the USA is awash with firearms with high capacity magazines, and assault rifles that can trace their lineage to the M16,

America more resembles the horn of Africa than Canada or other western democracies

armor piercing rounds, devastating hollow point bullets can be purchased anywhere

it is also your constitution, I can't imagine when it was drawn up they envisioned semi automatic bushmaster rifles or handguns with 14 round capacities, they had muzzle loading rifles, a few shots a minute, not 8-10 bullets a second

this site is also full of NRA gun freedom lunatics who will say guns don't kill people, people do, they will say that a firearm is just as deadly as a pitchfork, rock or glass bottle

nonsense, you cant kill a person from 100 meters with a rock, it can easily be done with a 5.56 bushmaster

your "freedom" that the gun lunatics talk about costs the lives of over 12000 Americans every year, massacres are now commonplace

I expect these comments will be deleted or the NRA machine gun types will jump all over it

well so be it, until you guys are sick of the carnage and body bags this story will repeat itself time and time again in America


First of all, my sincerest condolences to the families and friends of those that were senselessly taken from them.

Now lets see, I don't think the problem is as simple as you would like us to think.

The world is awash in Planes. Maybe we need to ban Planes, so we don't have to suffer another Terrorist attack like 9/11.

There is lots of Fertilizer out there. Maybe we need to ban Fertilizer, so we don't have another Oklahoma City bombing.

The world is awash in Cars. Lots of innocent people are killed every year in Cars. Maybe we need to ban Cars.



The person that committed this act, at 20 years of age, couldn't legally own the guns he used. He stole the legally owned firearms from his Mother, and then killed her with them. He then stole her car, and drove to the school. Maybe if a large group of kids had been standing outside the School, he would've used the car and plowed into them, and killed just as many.

And by the way, despite the hysterical and dishonest ranting from some in the media and the anti-gun zealots, no "assault rifles" were used at the school. The shooter used two handguns.

Just yesterday, the same day as this tragedy in Connecticut, a man killed kids in a school in China, with a knife. There are more knives in the world, than there are guns. Surely knives should be banned.

Guns are tightly controlled in Norway, and yet a deranged lunatic still managed to kill 91 people in a shooting and bombing rampage, there.

Laws only affect the honest, moral, and decent people. Those people don't need laws to tell them that killing innocent people is wrong. Deranged, evil people intent on killing, don't care about laws or morality. After all, killing people is against the law too, and yet that doesn't stop them.

The problem is simply mentally deranged evil people, that are bent on death and destruction. The real question is how do we prevent these people from acting out their murderous intentions? Or getting to that mental state in the first place?


+1 Well thought out!
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
The violence is a symptom, guns or no guns. The problem is cultural. We see it in a border town here as plain as day. You seem so angry and panicky and prone to violence. Take away the guns and you'll be stabbing yourselves.

It is cultural. The vast majority of these nut cases want to be famous. They see all of the fame that previous nut cases get and they desire that.


If you do not mind me asking, Tempest and mechtech2: Presuming this guy had serious mental predilections towards violent behaviour from youth, and *given* that "people kill people, guns don't kill people"; what do you think it is that cultivates the sickness in this man's mind to the point where he does something like this? What things do you think are advisable for the surrounding community to do to either prevent the cultivation of violence or to deal with these people?


There is a common theme among most of the young men who do these senseless acts of murder: they are shy, probably somewhere on the very high end of the autism spectrum, they're very intelligent etc. They are "people stupid". Sheldon Cooper, if you will.

It's not drug dealers, gang members, and career criminals who are doing these mass school or mall shootings. They're kids who have been rejected by society because they clearly have mental health problems. In this kids case, the parents see that the kid can ace tests in school, he's brilliant at most things academia etc., but because of a lack of social development, he can't live up to his true intellectual potential and what his parents want him to do (ie, go to college, graduate with honors, go on to be the next Einstein) and he flipped out. Not making excuses; plenty of kids have dealt with the same problems and moved on and have lived productive lives up to their complete potential, but modern society has to come up with a better way of helping the quiet kids come out of their shells. I guess some of them just can't be saved. And then, like you say, there is the culture of violence in the US, and it's obviously a problem. The video games, the movies, the TV shows. You're right; as a US citizen, I agree that the violence in mass media has become epidemic.


While I agree that many brilliant people have some pretty wild character quirks, that alone doesn't make them prone to these wild and seemingly random (though I think they are anything but) acts of violence that so often end in them taking their own lives.

I consider it a privilege to not only come from a family of quirky and brilliant people but to have been given that gift as well. Growing up, I experienced many of the things you mention here, the social awkwardness and problems relating to my peers. Polar academic performance depending on the subject. I skipped grades, was taking University courses in grade 9, bombed Chemistry, aced Advanced Physics....etc, I was all over the map. Yet, I have a sister who is even more socially awkward than I was, and while I have been able to grow close to a good number of people over time, she still doesn't step much outside her family for interaction.

For us it wasn't about coming out of our shells, so to speak, why should we have to change or conform just to be considered "normal"? No, it was the backlash we received from our peers for being different. That was the biggest obstacle of my youth and I absolutely LOATHED High School for that very reason. When Columbine happened, I wasn't surprised at all. The Public School system is a breeding ground for this type of activity. The "cool kids" and "jocks" take liberties with their peers and teachers, their actions go unchecked. Their victims, unable to do anything about being picked on simply boil alive in their anger. Sometimes they lash out, others just deal with it knowing that they will eventually be out of that situation, and that's what we did, reminding ourselves every day that this was only temporary and eventually we would never have to see those people again.

The last part of your post is key here. Plenty of kids have dealt with these issues and moved on. And it is my belief that parents play a key role here in determining whether their gifted or brilliant child ends up an outcast of society that will eventually lash out, or simply a shy and maybe awkward kid that will find his or her niche and explore their true potential once there.

All of that out of the way, one of my best friends is absolutely brilliant but came from a broken home and like you Drew, ended up exploring various methods of self medication, ending up in jail numerous times only to eventually find his own way in his late 20's. He has life ADD, jumping between careers and locations, never really settling down. He has made his life an adventure because he can, and that's what keeps him going. He has an insatiable thirst for change, mastering one job only to jump to another that puts him outside his comfort zone and challenges him with the unknown.

So while I believe there are people that are just broken to begin with, people that no measure of treatment is going to fix, I also believe that there are others who end up drowning in their own minds, eventually lashing out at a world who cannot tolerate or understand them. A world that shuns them for being different, and often their families doing the same.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
The violence is a symptom, guns or no guns. The problem is cultural. We see it in a border town here as plain as day. You seem so angry and panicky and prone to violence. Take away the guns and you'll be stabbing yourselves.

It is cultural. The vast majority of these nut cases want to be famous. They see all of the fame that previous nut cases get and they desire that.


If you do not mind me asking, Tempest and mechtech2: Presuming this guy had serious mental predilections towards violent behaviour from youth, and *given* that "people kill people, guns don't kill people"; what do you think it is that cultivates the sickness in this man's mind to the point where he does something like this? What things do you think are advisable for the surrounding community to do to either prevent the cultivation of violence or to deal with these people?


There is a common theme among most of the young men who do these senseless acts of murder: they are shy, probably somewhere on the very high end of the autism spectrum, they're very intelligent etc. They are "people stupid". Sheldon Cooper, if you will.

It's not drug dealers, gang members, and career criminals who are doing these mass school or mall shootings. They're kids who have been rejected by society because they clearly have mental health problems. In this kids case, the parents see that the kid can ace tests in school, he's brilliant at most things academia etc., but because of a lack of social development, he can't live up to his true intellectual potential and what his parents want him to do (ie, go to college, graduate with honors, go on to be the next Einstein) and he flipped out. Not making excuses; plenty of kids have dealt with the same problems and moved on and have lived productive lives up to their complete potential, but modern society has to come up with a better way of helping the quiet kids come out of their shells. I guess some of them just can't be saved. And then, like you say, there is the culture of violence in the US, and it's obviously a problem. The video games, the movies, the TV shows. You're right; as a US citizen, I agree that the violence in mass media has become epidemic.


You are spot on in your response.
thumbsup2.gif


We live in a society that promotes violence in the media, entertainment. We have lost the art of socializing and conversation. Most teens sit behind a computer or on thier smartphones without talking to someone in person. This has got to seriously warp some teens perception of reality. It is irresponsible to state that " I play violent games and I am normal". You know, too many kids have problems and these games are a great escape from the real world. If these games affect 1/4 of the kids out there then we have a serious problem.
 
I'd just like to say that I'm proud that we BITOG folks have been able to respectfully (mostly anyhow) carry on this thread and not have it locked yet!

I am keeping my mouth shut because I am a STRONG pro gun advocate and very educated on the issue...I can shut up a liberal gun grabber in less than a minute with FACTS. But on here I will get a time out and I don't want to be the reason for this thread to be locked.
 
Originally Posted By: rjundi
Semi-automatic weapons seems to be the recurrent theme at these too frequent mass killings. I don't think they would be possible with same severity without them.


They are just the weapon of choice of the unimaginative. Were I to plan a mass killing, I wouldn't head for my gun safe. I'd stop a Toys'R'Us and then the corner 7-11. I can assure you my body count would be higher than any of these shooters.

Ed
 
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
I'd just like to say that I'm proud that we BITOG folks have been able to respectfully (mostly anyhow) carry on this thread and not have it locked yet!

I am keeping my mouth shut because I am a STRONG pro gun advocate and very educated on the issue...I can shut up a liberal gun grabber in less than a minute with FACTS. But on here I will get a time out and I don't want to be the reason for this thread to be locked.


That's too bad, I'd love to hear what you have to say. I had a gun grabber neighbor who I shut down in less than a minute. I was entered into a debate that I wanted no part of but couldn't get out of it.
 
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
If you are on a terroist list you cannot fly however you can purchase a AK47 at a gun show. 20 children should make it happen and might add we have to hurry because this seems to be picking up speed. The talk points about people kill not guns is beyond LAME we really need to pull our heads out and hurry and get real!! What will it take???
make what happen?
 
Originally Posted By: 2004tdigls
...who will say guns don't kill people, people do, they will say that a firearm is just as deadly as a pitchfork, rock or glass bottle

nonsense,,,


2004tdigls, your statement is a distortion, intentional or not.

Please remember, that guns are not the only way to easily, simply and quickly kill a crowd. For example, a evildoer could choose a pipe bomb with shrapnel, Or a simple gallon of gas coupled with a match, or maybe chlorine and ammonia mixed in a bucket. Or, for that matter, simply drive on the sidewalk. Or, as we all know, employ aviation.
frown.gif


The list of potentially awful deeds is seemingly endless.

The reason I bring this up is that we have had local killings using some of these methods. Yet, they don't seem to make the national news.

It really is not the gun. It's the mental state of the evildoer.

Please understand, this is not a personal attack. I'm certain you and I could be fast friends. But I tend to take a big picture view of the situation. Evil is evil and it must be stopped. Attacking the weapon is foolish.
 
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
An automatic weapon that holds 30 rounds is not an object that should be owned by anyone. Unless you are really a bad shot hunting deer with 30 rounds is .... Very Lame
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
The talk points about people kill not guns is beyond LAME we really need to pull our heads out and hurry and get real!!


No you are lame. The gun is just an object. No different from a drunk killing someone with his car - you wanna ban cars too?

I pray for all the families in this tragedy....but it does not need to be used as an example for gun control. We need to focus on the root causes of the behavior...all these shootings are from crazy mental people where their Dr's and families knew they were not right in the head.
The shooter did not use any automatic weapons. Two handguns.
 
Originally Posted By: INMY01TA
The shooter did not use any automatic weapons. Two handguns.


Glad you confirmed that. WPIX 11 NY news showed a guy shooting an assault rifle and said the killer used a Bushmaster Assault Rifle .223 caliber, like the one in their video to gun down 20 children. Interesting how the media put a twist on things. Still tragic no matter how you cut it.
 
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
I'd just like to say that I'm proud that we BITOG folks have been able to respectfully (mostly anyhow) carry on this thread and not have it locked yet!

I am keeping my mouth shut because I am a STRONG pro gun advocate and very educated on the issue...I can shut up a liberal gun grabber in less than a minute with FACTS. But on here I will get a time out and I don't want to be the reason for this thread to be locked.


Sounds like you've never had this discussion with anyone who was especially bright or clever.
 
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