Yes "clean diesel" really is clean. (ACEEE.org)

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: theaveng
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
So...if its so clean, why aren't they in hybrids
Plenty of diesel-electric prototypes have been made, but so far nobody wants to sell them. (shrug). And both Ford and Honda say they have Focus and Civic diesels that would pass SULEV and PZEV ratings. But again, they just don't think there's a market for them in the U.S. so these cars stay in Europe (i.e. they are stupid). Personally I would love to have a 45hp Lupo diesel engine in my insight rather than a gasoline. It would get close to 90mpg on the highway.




There is already a diesel electric hybrid on sale in the UK.

Made by Peugeot. Basically the front wheels are driven by the economical Diesel engine and the rear wheels are battery driven.

Not sure how may have been sold though.

I believe Volvo is also looking at a diesel/electric hybrid.

 

[theaveng]

Well I don't regret buying my diesel. It attracts a lot of attention from girls ("awww it's cute") and really takes off due to the torque. The longterm oil changes are nice too (U.S. says 10k but Europe says 20k on the same engine).

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: theaveng
Well I don't regret buying my diesel. It attracts a lot of attention from girls ("awww it's cute") and really takes off due to the torque. The longterm oil changes are nice too (U.S. says 10k but Europe says 20k on the same engine).





If taking advantage of the long OCI as specced in Europe mke sure you don't stray into severe service territory. Which halves the OCI in some vehicles though not all.

I know a few people that have opted out of the extended OCI service schedule due to the cost of the oil needed to do them and its relative lack of availability.

Do you mind if I ask what OCI and oil you are going to run in the beetle and what engine is in it?

1.9 tdi, 1.9 pd, 2.0 non common rail or common rail.

I assume they have a been available in the Beetle tdi?



A very unusual car indeed.

 

[sciphi]

Nice to see I'm driving a pretty "green" car (Cruze Eco manual transmission). It's sure helping keep more green in my wallet with the super-long commute I have this year...

 

[andyd]

Clean diesel is all very well. Live long and prosper. Up in the North East, people use it for heat. It doesnt have to burn very clean to out perform wood or coal for emissions.

 

[crw]

Originally Posted By: Boomer
Why is diesel more expensive?

1. It contains more calories/BTUs pergallon than gasoline becausie it has a higher density.
2. There is a large draw on diesel, kerosene , heating oil and aviation jet fuel (all related to one another at the refinery.) This will probably get worse, not better, until there is more refinery capacity that allows for more production without starving gasoline production.


My "seat of the pants" observation is that diesel prices that you see at the pump tend to track the price of oil fairly closely.

The price for gasoline, however, involves the price of oil, and also the refining component, all the boutique blends mandated by the EPA, etc. At certain times and seasons, that extra component can bring the price of gasoline near to, or even above the diesel price.

In europe, diesel fuel is taxed much less than gasoline. That's why they are popular there, pure and simple. Diesel prices at the pump are typically less than gas. Combine that with better mileage and it's almost a no-brainer.

 

[3311]

Originally Posted By: crw
Originally Posted By: Boomer
Why is diesel more expensive?

1. It contains more calories/BTUs pergallon than gasoline becausie it has a higher density.
2. There is a large draw on diesel, kerosene , heating oil and aviation jet fuel (all related to one another at the refinery.) This will probably get worse, not better, until there is more refinery capacity that allows for more production without starving gasoline production.


My "seat of the pants" observation is that diesel prices that you see at the pump tend to track the price of oil fairly closely.

The price for gasoline, however, involves the price of oil, and also the refining component, all the boutique blends mandated by the EPA, etc. At certain times and seasons, that extra component can bring the price of gasoline near to, or even above the diesel price.

In europe, diesel fuel is taxed much less than gasoline. That's why they are popular there, pure and simple. Diesel prices at the pump are typically less than gas. Combine that with better mileage and it's almost a no-brainer.


I agree about all of the different formulations and additional refining adding to cost.
Tree Hugging is expensive!

 

[theaveng]

Originally Posted By: sciphi
Nice to see I'm driving a pretty "green" car (Cruze Eco manual transmission)
Have you done a used oil analysis? The Eco uses the same engine as the Volt, except with the added turbine for more power.

The previous owner of my Pump Direct Beetle ran 10,000 miles/change with Mobil 1 TurboDiesel. i.e. By the book. I'm following the same schedule but with Castrol SLX since it carries the VW505 approval.

In Europe the New Beetles had all kinds of different engines from 4 cylinder through 6 cylinder, with or without turbo, and small 1.4L diesels that got 60mpg. In America there were just two options: the I4 (later replaced with the I5) or the TDI. We always get fewer options than Euros or Japanese. Maybe they think we're too dumb to handle more than 2 or 3 options.

 

[theaveng]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2a
high compression diesel takes more energy to restart, versus a low compression gas engine, so the battery takes a bigger draw. On top of that, the diesel doesnt need hybridization to get 50 MPG, and the fuel to air ratios change dynamically according to load, so perhaps there is less of a compelling benefit.
I have the perfect application for a Diesel Hybrid: The Lupo 3L

It already had the idlestop built in, so VW overcame that obstacle. The problem was the engine was only 45hp and took 15 seconds to reach 60 mph. Solution: Add the electric assist from my Honda hybrid, to decrease that time to 10 seconds.

Done.
Now you have a diesel-electric Lupo Hybrid that gets 80mpg on the highway, but with stronger acceleration. And the original cost was $17000; add $2000 for the battery/IMA. You have a $19,000 car that almost doubles the MPG of the other econocars.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: bigjl
If taking advantage of the long OCI as specced in Europe mke sure you don't stray into severe service territory. Which halves the OCI in some vehicles though not all.

I know a few people that have opted out of the extended OCI service schedule due to the cost of the oil needed to do them and its relative lack of availability.

Do you mind if I ask what OCI and oil you are going to run in the beetle and what engine is in it?

1.9 tdi, 1.9 pd, 2.0 non common rail or common rail.

I assume they have a been available in the Beetle tdi?

A very unusual car indeed.


I believe the current Jetta (Bora) and Golf TDI's in North America are common rail 2.0's, and have been since 2009?. The 1.9's were rotary pump (VE) from 1996 until 2003; in 2004&2005 (and some 2005 models somehow sold in 2006) were 1.9L Pumpe Duese (PD) models, with the stupid expensive unit injectors. Passats were available with 1.9 VE for '96, 97, (maybe another year?), then in 04&05 it was a 2.0 PD IIRC.

My '04 PD has gotten a mixed diet of Motul, Quartz or Total, either 505.01, 506 or 507 oils. Initially I did 10kmile OCI's but generally run 12k. Once in a while I forget and have run close to 14k... I think our oils see a harder life than Europe usage, as I think we have much higher EGR flow rates. Supposedly mine runs up to 40% EGR; it has an "intake flap" which for all the world looks like a throttling valve; its job in life is again to choke the engine, so as to aid in EGR.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: 3311
Originally Posted By: crw
Originally Posted By: Boomer
Why is diesel more expensive?

1. It contains more calories/BTUs pergallon than gasoline becausie it has a higher density.
2. There is a large draw on diesel, kerosene , heating oil and aviation jet fuel (all related to one another at the refinery.) This will probably get worse, not better, until there is more refinery capacity that allows for more production without starving gasoline production.


My "seat of the pants" observation is that diesel prices that you see at the pump tend to track the price of oil fairly closely.

The price for gasoline, however, involves the price of oil, and also the refining component, all the boutique blends mandated by the EPA, etc. At certain times and seasons, that extra component can bring the price of gasoline near to, or even above the diesel price.

In europe, diesel fuel is taxed much less than gasoline. That's why they are popular there, pure and simple. Diesel prices at the pump are typically less than gas. Combine that with better mileage and it's almost a no-brainer.


I agree about all of the different formulations and additional refining adding to cost.
Tree Hugging is expensive!


Also, a lot of the legacy rules about vapor pressure and volatile components that led to the seasonal and regional blends are useless or even counter-productive now, in my opinion. In the days of carburetors and even throttle-body injection, having a high volatility/high vapor pressure fuel in winter did cause a net reduction in emissions because combustion would be more complete during the long time it used to take for catcons to light off and start working. But with today's engine management systems, its totally counterproductive because the huge increase in evaporative emissions at gas stations and during transport overwhelms any tiny decrease in emissions until the catalysts light off in cold weather.

 

[theaveng]

This convo is confusing me. I just want a Lupo 3L Hybrid so I can get the 3L's rated 80mpg, but with the electric assist.

 

[Cujet]

My non scientific testing of new diesels says that they are not as clean as believed.

My testing involves extended roadside bicycle rides. These new diesels have a weird and very strong smell. Not at all like a diesel, but I can't help thinking it's unhealthy. In fact, when they pass by, I can tell by smell what vehicle it is. The VW's have a very distinctive smell. The Chevy trucks (with DPF, you can tell by the exhaust tip) have very hot exhaust and it's stifling.

I've come to hate the smell of all diesels.

 

[NateDN10]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
My non scientific testing of new diesels says that they are not as clean as believed.

My testing involves extended roadside bicycle rides. These new diesels have a weird and very strong smell. Not at all like a diesel, but I can't help thinking it's unhealthy. In fact, when they pass by, I can tell by smell what vehicle it is. The VW's have a very distinctive smell. The Chevy trucks (with DPF, you can tell by the exhaust tip) have very hot exhaust and it's stifling.

I've come to hate the smell of all diesels.

I know what you're talking about - rather than the typical diesel exhaust odor, it's almost a vinegar smell.

However, my dad has an '11 Jetta TDI and it's completely odorless. I have to wonder if something isn't working properly on the ones that smell bad.

 

[cchase]

I often get the chlorine smell from diesels, I don't know much about diesels but that smell can't be good for you either.

Diesels have a long way to go before they're clean enough for me in terms of the various stenches they put out.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: NateDN10

However, my dad has an '11 Jetta TDI and it's completely odorless. I have to wonder if something isn't working properly on the ones that smell bad.


I think the new VW TDI's are odorless at idle and low power. But, at highway speeds, they have a distinct smell. Try riding a motorcycle behind them. The smell is strong, distinct and disgusting (at least to me) . In fact, it smells like poison to me.

 

[2004tdigls]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
My non scientific testing of new diesels says that they are not as clean as believed.

My testing involves extended roadside bicycle rides. These new diesels have a weird and very strong smell. Not at all like a diesel, but I can't help thinking it's unhealthy. In fact, when they pass by, I can tell by smell what vehicle it is. The VW's have a very distinctive smell. The Chevy trucks (with DPF, you can tell by the exhaust tip) have very hot exhaust and it's stifling.

I've come to hate the smell of all diesels.


simply not true, in many ways the new diesels are cleaner than the gasoline engines they currently replace

http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/emissions2012.html

in fact the new GDI engines will soon be fitted with particulate filters to meet the new euro 6 and EPA emission standards

http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2011-01-1212.pdf

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: 2004tdigls

simply not true,,,


I'm not saying they are not technically clean. I'm saying that they do emit an unusual odor that I find very objectionable. That forces me to reach the conclusion that something unhealthy is still being emitted. Who knows, maybe the smell is 100% harmless.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Also, a lot of the legacy rules about vapor pressure and volatile components that led to the seasonal and regional blends are useless or even counter-productive now, in my opinion. In the days of carburetors and even throttle-body injection, having a high volatility/high vapor pressure fuel in winter did cause a net reduction in emissions because combustion would be more complete during the long time it used to take for catcons to light off and start working. But with today's engine management systems, its totally counterproductive because the huge increase in evaporative emissions at gas stations and during transport overwhelms any tiny decrease in emissions until the catalysts light off in cold weather.


Absolutely true. And one older car can emit THOUSANDS of times more pollutants than a newer properly running car of similar displacement.

And I agree about the diesel exhaust. I am certain it simply contains some newer poison that is as yet unregulated!