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#2842157 - 12/20/12 04:17 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: bigjl]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7071
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Millers do indeed procure "Nano" oils for racing.

Big dosh but can be found on Opieoils.

With any new technology somebody has to either go first or be the first to take it main stream.

The oil meets lots of stringent Acea specs so can't be bad.

I wouldn't think a company with the reputation of Millers Oils would be trying to sell snake oil.

There are some very good oil firms that have little presence in the US.

In the same way as some US companies have little presence in the UK and Europe.

Comma and Morris oils are two off the top of my head.


There IS one distributor stateside who will be carrying Millers oils (and their Nanodrive racing) in the spring.

My question was NOT where/how to get it, but whether or not they use this IF WS2 as their primary, nano sized, AW agent. wink

We may NEVER know without a FULL VOA, and gas chromatography performed on it, as I'm SURE that they will plead the old, tired, tried and true, "propriatary info" if asked. frown
_________________________
2000 Z28 1SC 6 speed 175K miles
Red Line 0W-40/Sustina 0W-20 (20/80 mix)
Fram Ultra filter
Synpower 75W-140/4oz. XL-3
Red Line D4 in the T56

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#2842392 - 12/20/12 07:07 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
GMorg Offline


Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 2329
Loc: Mizzou-land
alternety wrote: "I am really only interested in the IF WS2 and possibly some normal structured particles below 100nm."

The link I provided above is for a mean size of 90nm.

I don't recommend either product.

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#2842686 - 12/21/12 02:20 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
GMorg - I have sent an email to them asking what they are actually selling. They are small particles, but they say nearly spherical. Spherical sort of indicates IF. I believe non-IF appears as a planar material. Pricing is in the range of IF. So I am waiting for a response from them. Non IF at that price is not necessarily a good deal. I believe that the characteristics are sufficiently different to try real hard for IF.

I am interested in your comment about not recommending either product. Technical reason or just CYA?

dailydriver - I looked at Opieoils and Miller. Not any indication of WS let alone nano particles. The point with those is I DO NOT WANT OIL. I need powder or an evaporating carrier.

Thanks for all the responses. Any assistance appreciated. I am going out now to seriously annoy some local windmills.


Edited by alternety (12/21/12 02:22 AM)

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#2843480 - 12/21/12 04:26 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: dailydriver]
67King Offline


Registered: 10/19/12
Posts: 85
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Millers do indeed procure "Nano" oils for racing.

Big dosh but can be found on Opieoils.

With any new technology somebody has to either go first or be the first to take it main stream.

The oil meets lots of stringent Acea specs so can't be bad.

I wouldn't think a company with the reputation of Millers Oils would be trying to sell snake oil.

There are some very good oil firms that have little presence in the US.

In the same way as some US companies have little presence in the UK and Europe.

Comma and Morris oils are two off the top of my head.


There IS one distributor stateside who will be carrying Millers oils (and their Nanodrive racing) in the spring.

My question was NOT where/how to get it, but whether or not they use this IF WS2 as their primary, nano sized, AW agent. wink

We may NEVER know without a FULL VOA, and gas chromatography performed on it, as I'm SURE that they will plead the old, tired, tried and true, "propriatary info" if asked. frown


A few points. I'm with the US distributor of Millers. Have been meaning to get on there and seek out threads about Millers, but have been pretty slammed with several things.

First thing I want to address is Millers, itself. You are indeed correct about the company. Millers is about 130 years old, having started out making industrial lubricants. It has resisted the consolidation that the industry has seen over the years, and to this day remains in control of the Millers family. bigjl obviously gets that, but I know that Millers is unknown to the majority of folks here. I could keep going on about this, but I'd point to the recent technical development partnership Millers and Bryan Herta Autosports (Barracuda Racing) have formed. Not a sponsorship, MIllers is developing some proprietary oils for their IndyCar efforts, and will be supplying their lower tier teams, as well. But no, not snake oil.

On to the oil, itself. The NT content and additives are proprietary. I apologize that we can't make this info public, but given the performance capabilities, it is indeed a valuable technology. The gear oils have been out since 2008, and the motorsports users in places like WRC and BTCC are seeing 3-4 times the life out of it. The F1 team that has been working with Millers for the past couple of years has seen the wear after a 5 Grand Prix simulation on a dyno fall off drastically (they were slated to bring it in this year, but due to the tight points race, waited, and should be using it next year). There are efficiencies gained, as well. So teams are seeing gearbox oil temperatures in closed systems drop 20-25 degrees F.

Second point is that the engine oils took years to develop. The same technology won a pretty prestigous award in 2009. It has been nominated for the 2012 award which will be presented next month at teh World Motorsport Symposium in the UK. Point with that is that it took years to develop the oil, even though Millers had a very strong fully synthetic racing engine oil with which to start. I know most folks here are smart enough than to think that they could just get this stuff and add it in, but to end up with a truly optimized blend takes a long time, with a lot of resources. And again, the base oil is very robust, so that is more than half of the story.

The NT additives serve very, very well as an EP additive, which is why Millers set out to develop the gear oils first. The main benefit seen in engine oils is in boundary lubrication, so primarily near TDC and BDC on the cylinders. Valvetrain, as well. But its mechanisms are more similar to an EP additive than to ZDDP (note that the racing oil still contains high levels of ZDDP, too high to meet SN ratings - the NT did enable Millers to reduce it by about 10%, but it is still about 1100ppm).

We actually currently have the motorsports stuff in stock. Have had it for several months. We are setting up some dealer networks, and are starting to see more and more interest. We hvae recieved very good feedback, particularly with the gear oil. Yes, the motorsports stuff is very expensive, but it is not out of line with other high end motorsports oils. Most is $20/L, just like Motul 300V or Joe Gibbs XP#. The 0W20 and 0W30 are $22.50/L. But the important thing to note here is that it isn't the NT additives that drive up the cost, it is the good, high quality base stock (again, just like some of the better racing oils out there). While the road oils will command a premium when they come out, they won't be priced at the same kind of levels as the Motorsports stuff. The current longlife road oils are priced pretty close to Motul 8100.

Will try to start watching stuff here and answer questions as they arise. Feel free to shoot me an e-mail at hking@performanceracingoils.com if you would like to know some stuff. I can post some more info on the oils, but I don't want to come across as advertising it.
_________________________
944T - SP3 race car, 944TS "hot rod", 968 driver, 67GTO, 66 Bronco, 10 535i M-Sport, 6.7L Cummins Ram, 07 R320CDI - all with Millers

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#2844301 - 12/22/12 01:54 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7071
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
^^^THANK YOU for finally coming on here! thumbsup

Do you have spec sheets for any of these products yet (ESPECIALLY the gear oils and the 0W-XX egine oils)???

What weights are the gear oils offered in?

ANY speculation on the weights the street oils are going to be released in, and is there ANY possibility they will have higher VIs than the race oils??

Sadly, from what I remember you had told me during our phone conversation, many on here will BLAST/DISS the engine oils for having a low VI, even though they are made for RACING, and labelled as such.
Some on here feel that the VI spec is the be all, end all of ANY premium synthetic oil, EVEN racing oils, especially in this price range, and they even have me half convinced about this. frown
_________________________
2000 Z28 1SC 6 speed 175K miles
Red Line 0W-40/Sustina 0W-20 (20/80 mix)
Fram Ultra filter
Synpower 75W-140/4oz. XL-3
Red Line D4 in the T56

Top
#2844309 - 12/22/12 02:08 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: dailydriver]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21320
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: dailydriver


Sadly, from what I remember you had told me during our phone conversation, many on here will BLAST/DISS the engine oils for having a low VI, even though they are made for RACING, and labelled as such.
Some on here feel that the VI spec is the be all, end all of ANY premium synthetic oil, EVEN racing oils, especially in this price range, and they even have me half convinced about this. frown


I'm no longer buying into the "VI spec" as the "be all, end all" either.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#2844391 - 12/22/12 03:57 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
The magic material in Millers appears likely to be IF WS2. Look at the paragraph under the picture in the first post in this thread. http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/ra...nsor-intro.html Reference to the soccer ball form points to IF WS2. I could be carbon, but for hi temp and pressure I would lean toward WS2. I have seen advertising for additives based on diamond. I don't think Moly comes in this structure; but could very well be wrong. Some potions use hexagonal Boron Nitride and refer to ceramic.

Overall the picture and text make me think IF WS2. I may get some and play with it, but I still really want powder.

There is a product called NanoLube that appears to be sort of on the market. I have found no sources and the manufacturer/distributor/? in Singapore does not answer my emails. I am fairly certain it is IF WS2.

For use in engines, something like Millers NT is just what you want. I do not believe there is anything with better lubricant properties on the horizon. You can put powder in your regular oil if you just get an additive version.

I also found this in the same thread - http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/...-a-bottle.aspx. Performance would be consistent with IF WS2 but could also be just nano WS2 or some other nano material.

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#2844549 - 12/22/12 07:01 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
GMorg Offline


Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 2329
Loc: Mizzou-land
From the link above:
"The nanoparticles in the Millers Oils have multiple layers of nested spheres, and are less than 1/10th of a micron in size (0.000004”). The nested spheres resemble onion layers, which can exfoliate under extreme pressure and form a protective tribofilm on the metal surfaces. Due to the tremendous surface area, the nanospheres will migrate to and “stick” to the walls of lubricated components."


This discription sounds like fullerenes to me. If the core technology is not a buckey ball, then they should get some sort of award for marketing speak.

As for my lack of recommendation for sheet type-solid additives (MoS2 or WS2), it is not a CYA. I don't care for the idea of a suspended solid that can aggregate within all of the other material that collects in heat damaged oils. In addition, planar crystals can also approach wear surfaces on the perpendicular. Some graphite preparations can increase wear in certain circumstances by this mechanism. The analogy with playing cards still holds up, but instead of making contact on the flat side and sliding, the particles hit edgewise and create the equivalent to a paper cut.

I'm intrigued with the fullerenes. However, I am concerned that with extended use, disturbed spheres will become sheets. Luckily, they will still be much smaller than anything that starts as a sheet-type crystal.

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#2844571 - 12/22/12 07:18 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
Thanks GMorg. When I first found these things, I saw the issue of "peeling the onion" but more research resolved that question. What I have seen about the Buckyballs behavior in this environment is that they do indeed laminate (if that is really the proper term) in high pressure service. But what they are saying is that these "onion" shells form much smaller particles that are more effective at bonding to the surface of the target material and are more likely to penetrate into the pores of the substrate. With the Buckyball already around 60nm, they can be quite petite (and possibly pretty in pink if they could be made pink).

The indications I had were that starting with Fullerenes, the overall lubrication effect was significantly enhanced.Non-Fullerene products would need something else for surface imbedding for similar (but less effective) results.

As I think I mentioned much earlier in this thread, it is really interesting searching through threads from various interest groups. There is a whole lot of "snake oil" references and there is no way in *ell that can be true even though they provided test results. They are clearly lying scum bags.

To this I answer with a quote from one of the great SciFi writers: Technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic. Nano tech is the closest thing for a while that embodies that statement. Ignoring things like quantum phenomenon (which could include this) and 50 billion transistors on 1/4 sq in.

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#2845209 - 12/23/12 12:55 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7071
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
Originally Posted By: alternety
The magic material in Millers appears likely to be IF WS2. Look at the paragraph under the picture in the first post in this thread. http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/ra...nsor-intro.html Reference to the soccer ball form points to IF WS2. I could be carbon, but for hi temp and pressure I would lean toward WS2. I have seen advertising for additives based on diamond. I don't think Moly comes in this structure; but could very well be wrong. Some potions use hexagonal Boron Nitride and refer to ceramic.

Overall the picture and text make me think IF WS2.



I may just have to tear away from the "VI is EVERYTHING" crew, and try their 0W-30 Racing for the spring/summer OCI, despite the low VI. wink thumbsup
_________________________
2000 Z28 1SC 6 speed 175K miles
Red Line 0W-40/Sustina 0W-20 (20/80 mix)
Fram Ultra filter
Synpower 75W-140/4oz. XL-3
Red Line D4 in the T56

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#2845662 - 12/23/12 07:48 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
dailydriver - not my area of expertise, but the mechanism is rather different for this stuff than "oil". It takes place at the atomic or molecular bonding level of pretty small particles to make a film that is probably thinner, certainly more effective, than the relatively huge molecules of slippery polymers et al. If I remember from very long ago, high VI says "sticky". IF WS2 don't need no stinking sticky.

If it was not so expensive I would try some in my two cars (plebeian old guys transportation) a 90 Honda and a 1999 Audi. And my tractor.

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#2846268 - 12/24/12 11:34 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7071
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
I believe that Millers uses a VERY high content group 4/5 base stock, with the resultant naturally high VI, (as far as BASE STOCKS go), and also the resultant high polarity of that type of base stock.

The NANO part ONLY comes in for their add pack/AW compounds.
THIS is why I was asking if their add pack AW compound could be these IF WS2s.
_________________________
2000 Z28 1SC 6 speed 175K miles
Red Line 0W-40/Sustina 0W-20 (20/80 mix)
Fram Ultra filter
Synpower 75W-140/4oz. XL-3
Red Line D4 in the T56

Top
#2846654 - 12/24/12 05:26 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
I got an email back from Ran-Up additive about IF WS2. They have no idea what is in the product. They are probably a smallish middle man which seems quite common in the Asian market.

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#2849602 - 12/27/12 04:57 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
I have some large particle WS2. I need to make up a small amount for small household lubrication. My thought was to use 99% alcohol but some other non-residual solvent with no water in it seems like a good idea for this. Any suggestions for a solvent. It needs to evaporate quickly and not attack things like paint and plastic. No residue.

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#2852480 - 12/30/12 12:32 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
In looking for a carrier for the WS2 I have been calling it a solvent. It is obviously a carrier. Sorry for the lack of rigor.

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