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#2822660 - 12/03/12 05:03 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 6984
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
I wonder if this is one of the 'proprietary' AW addpack ingredients in the new, VERY costly, Millers Nanodrive racing oils??
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#2822719 - 12/03/12 05:35 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
I just went looking for a quick check of coefficient of friction and found some interesting comparisons. I tend to graze when I am doing searches.

http://www.ws2oil.com/what-is-ws2.html

A bit about milling and dispersant - but not for IF.

http://144.206.159.178/ft/718/598181/12404566.pdf

Testing but this time with IF. An interesting point I had missed previously was that added oil improves performance.

http://144.206.159.178/ft/1095/52257/917041.pdf

Rose Mill Industries - Tungsten Disulfide Powder (0.89-1.7Ám) 1/2 lb. It is not IF nor is it nano.





Edited by alternety (12/03/12 05:41 PM)
Edit Reason: Rose Mill

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#2822730 - 12/03/12 05:42 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33624
Loc: New Jersey
OP: there have been, and are a ton of companies specializing in "nano" and are long out of business. Just because someone came up with a process, or has a patent, or whatever, doesnt mean that the stuff is good, best, or practical.

I applaud you with wanting to learn about the stuff and try to use it.

I also recommend reading up keenly on PPE, as nanoparticles can be a lot more hazardousthan bigger stuff.

I am still of the mind that practically speaking, there may be no real benefit over usin MoS2. Even the charts at apnano were fairly nondescript and generic, nothing indicating any relevant part of the real physics at play here.

I am fully aware that the frictional characteristics are known and that WS2 is more lubricious. I have experience with its use.

But again, now youre talking about milling. Are you going to mill it? Milling is an art in and of itself. I spent a lot of time working with R&D engineers on this... The power input to get the particles down to size is enormous and exponentially grows.

And just mixing something in doesnt mean much. Ever put hot chocolate powder into water and it "kind of" mix. Youll need a high shear mixer.

And again, be careful of PPE if truly working with nano powders, even if dispersed.

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#2822766 - 12/03/12 06:14 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: JHZR2]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
I do understand failure of start-ups. In the meantime, the material can be purchased. A small amount goes a very long way. I still have MoS2 that I probably bought 50 years ago. And sample quantities of a few other exotics that have lasted at least 30 years.

Thanks for the warning about nano particles and humans. I am aware of the possibilities and will be careful. Short of an isolation box with exhaust air going through maybe an electrostatic filter, being careful is about all I can do. Sort of like having to live with Diesel exhaust. Although I do wear an NBR breathing mask while on the tractor.

My intent is to put it in a carrier (alcohol) rather than simply play with powder. But once that evaporates and I am burnishing? Some, if not all, will wind up in specialized lubricants as an additive. They will not be as prone to evaporation.

The only reason I mentioned milling is that you brought it up earlier. I have no interest in it.

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#2822855 - 12/03/12 07:13 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14518
Loc: Midwest
Quote:
I believe MoS2 usually has graphite in it plus a base. I am guessing the graphite does a bit of pore filling and then the MoS2 rides on that surface. Although I also believe that the MoS2 also does some metal bonding.


MoS2 doesn't not have graphite as it's base if you're talking about the powder form. Much as been written about MoS2 in the early papers in the periodical WEAR and it forms flat sliding surfaces like slick shingles sliding over each other.

MoDTC is a soluble version that has been extensively used in all modern lubricants as a friction modifier and antioxidant, and it is synergstoc with ZDDP.

Personally, I am betting on the newer polmers such as the polymer esters and ionized vegetable esters, and the dibutyldithiocarbamates as the better friction modifiers and anti-wear additives as the next generation multifunctional additives.


Edited by MolaKule (12/03/12 07:17 PM)
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#2822916 - 12/03/12 07:54 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: MolaKule]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
I was thinking about end-user products for graphite. Many do. I understand that graphite is a bad thing to be used in a high pressure interface between stainless and aluminum. A galling issue. The base I was talking about was the grease/oil it is suspended in. I was looking for a MoS2 without graphite for a while. That is the investigation that led me to WS2 then IF WS2. As my wife will gladly explain, I just never know when to stop. I have an information gathering disease and and an annoying habit of wanting an optimal technical solution. She is silly though. She objects to having to dance naked widdershins on the first Tuesday of the month before an alter with burned bacon to get the heating system, house lights, and VOIP telephones to function simultaneously.

Anything interesting that may be a good match for IF WS2?

So far, still no IF WS2 source.

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#2823520 - 12/04/12 11:41 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
Kestas Offline



Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 10811
Loc: The Motor City
WS2 is an excellent solid lube on par with MoS2. It was used in some older lube formulations. I'm guessing WS2 fell out of favor as an additive when the price of Mo came down some 30 years ago.

A new Mo mine was discovered I think in S. America. The Climax Molybdenum Research facility of AMAX in Ann Arbor closed down at that time when the price of Mo dropped significantly. The AMAX Mo mine in Colorado was idled about the same time. Many of my colleagues had to look elsewhere for work.

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#2823860 - 12/04/12 04:38 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
How do you mine MoS2 without falling off?

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#2836445 - 12/15/12 11:35 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
I just can't get any vendors in Asia to answer any queries about buying a small quantity of IF WS2. I have been using Alibaba and a couple of direct emails. Anyone have suggestions about getting their attention?

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#2840050 - 12/18/12 10:10 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
GMorg Offline


Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 2326
Loc: Mizzou-land
Inorganic Fullerenes (IFs) are synthesized chemically. They are not milled or ground.

IFs of WS2 or even multilayered WS2/MoS2 IFs appear to work through three mechanisms.

Under low loads (especially as a dry lubricant), with smooth surfaces of even clearances, they simply roll. This action appears to be hindered when suspended in fluids due to local molecular interactions. The down side of nanoparticles in fluids is that they begin to act more like solutes instead of particles. Brownian motion alone can keep particles of this size in suspension. In other words, the vibration of molecules is enough to keep these particles "mixed up" in the fluid.

Under medium loads, they can be begin to provide lubrication through deformation. This action is practical in fluids and because of the difficulty in maintaining sphericity and narrow size distribution during synthesis, it more practical in general.

Lastly,under high loads (and more important in PCMO applications) multilayered IFs can act through exfoliation, much like MoS2. In other words, the layers peel off and are deposited onto the surface. Think deck of cards.

Since the surface layers that are formed from exfoliation are very similar to those formed from soluble Zn, Mo, Ti, etc, the soluble additives have tremendous cost advantages for essentially very similar end-results.

The big question is whether large quantities of similar sized, primarily spherical IFs ca be made economically and whether the physical ball bearing effects can be routinely observed in a fluid carrier.

Personally, I don't think that plating through simple surface interactions or even through van der waals forces can hold IFs on surfaces within a liquid and more importantly if these forces can hold the particles on sliding surfaces.

I search on google scholar with the terms "IF WS2" will yield a lot of papers on synthesis.

http://scholar.google.com/schhp?hl=en

If you add the term "friction" you will get a lot of papers about the topic at hand.




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#2840152 - 12/19/12 12:24 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
Thanks for the info. I have seen the one feature you mention discussed in terms of cost savings because of IF WS2 being able to provide proper surface adhesion without additional additives needed to create deposits with just WS2. There are a bunch of reports on WS2 in oil and grease that show significant lubricity improvements.

I believe I saw a statement in one paper that the effects are actually enhanced in fluid. That did not seem quite right to me, but this is not what I do. If I got inexpensive enough nano scale powder I will probably try some in engines. I have ordered some at around 600nm and much of that will probably wind up in engines and less critical operations. At the very least it will be somewhat better than MoS2 in the same applications. With powder, I can choose my own carriers. Some of the applications have specialized lubricants already available and I can use the WS2 to enhance them. The solutions hitting the market are all of unspecified (secret)fluids. The base fluid may simply not be the best solution for specialized applications.

There are at least two products that appear to be bringing IF WS2 to engine oil additives at your neighborhood parts store. But I have found no sources. I am guessing that the manufacturing process probably has not reached high volume/yield yet (or just recently).

The uses I want to try with IF WS2 will mostly involve non-suspended operation. Alcohol (or a solvent without water content) and the powder. Possibly just burnished on.

Do you perhaps have any ideas of where I might source some IF WS2? Please PM me if you can help. My wife keeps wandering by mumbling obsessive compulsiveness. She has other projects identified.

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#2841386 - 12/19/12 09:44 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
GMorg Offline


Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 2326
Loc: Mizzou-land
You cannot get IFs at the following link, but it looks like you can get other goodies to play with. They are selling nano sized WS2 derived from sonication. The silvery suspension appears to become green in color as you reach the nano scale.

https://graphene-supermarket.com/WS2-Ultrafine-Powder-5-Grams.html

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#2841538 - 12/20/12 05:50 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
bigjl Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 1699
Loc: London, England
Millers do indeed procure "Nano" oils for racing.

Big dosh but can be found on Opieoils.

With any new technology somebody has to either go first or be the first to take it main stream.

The oil meets lots of stringent Acea specs so can't be bad.

I wouldn't think a company with the reputation of Millers Oils would be trying to sell snake oil.

There are some very good oil firms that have little presence in the US.

In the same way as some US companies have little presence in the UK and Europe.

Comma and Morris oils are two off the top of my head.
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#2841617 - 12/20/12 07:41 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
GearheadTool Offline


Registered: 03/31/12
Posts: 1711
Loc: Boston, MA
Most everyone that has examined the WS2 "powders" has come away buying, and then subsequently using, this.



It is at NAPA, and online (Amazon.com)
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#2841983 - 12/20/12 01:12 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
Gearhead - why do they subsequently switch to less lubricious MoS2? Where have they been finding WS2 powders to examine? Particularly any that might be the desired IF WS2.

I am really only interested in the IF WS2 and possibly some normal structured particles below 100nm.

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