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#3210922 - 12/09/13 12:18 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
Garak Online   content


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11669
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Fuchs Titan popped into my mind, and I mentioned it in another thread. Not sure about moly, but I believe their ZDDP is next to nil.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3211175 - 12/09/13 11:51 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
67King Offline


Registered: 10/19/12
Posts: 85
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Alright, hope I have some time to put together a reply to answer all questions.

On the actual NT additive Millers uses - it is proprietary. Do I know what it is? Yes. However, I am not an employee of Millers, so while I can give them feedback from my customer base, I have no ability to influence whether or not they'll tell folks what it is. That said, I have to agree with them that keeping it proprietary is advisable, even though it has taken years to determine the right amount with other additives.

As for the interaction of various additives to one another - this is apples and oranges. Or more appropriately, cake to cornbread. The NT isn't just dumped in. It largely replaces conventional friction modifiers. It does so because it doesn't shear down over time, and while others may protect on the "microscopic" level, the NT would be more appropriately described as on the molecular (no pun intended) level.

So how well does it work? Since gear oil is one of the things in question here, here is what it does for coefficient of friction versus load - basic gear oil, gear oil + conventional moly EP additive, and basic gear oil with NT instead:


Okay, so it reduces coefficient of friction. What about load bearing capability? Here are a couple of SRV Oscillation tests (I believe it is ASTM D5706):
Baseline w/ conventional additive:


With NT additive ILO conventional:


As you can see from the above, the non-NT version with conventional EP additive fails shorty before the load increase from 1100N to 1200N. That is the green line. This compares to a failure slightly after the load increased to 1600N on the NT version. The red line is the CF, so even before the failure, you can see the (qualitatively) better performance of the NT version.

Another benefit on the gear oils is heat rejection. Millers has been working with some F1 teams wiht the technology, which ones are confidential (though there is a formal technical partnership with Bryan Herta Autosports). Measured heat rejection difference for the first generation was on the order of 500 Watts. It is now larger. Measurement taken from a water bath used to heat gearbox oil on powertrain dyno testing sessions. It takes 500W more power to get the right temperatures with the NT oil. Typical race cars without large external coolers (which confound the system) see 10-15C drops in operating temperatures. Race Tech Magazine had a good article about it that goes into some of the mechanics: This is a PDF of the article Race Tech: Tiny Technology, Big Breakthrough FWIW, the gear oil also beat out McLaren and Williams for Most Innovative New Product in Motorsports in 2009.

To get to the "transmission" versus "gear" oil difference, Millers does have a transmission oil with the technology, http://performanceracingoils.com/ee-transmission-75w90-oil-p-87.html. It is the street version of the race oil. There is a philosophy that Millers has pertaining to viscometrics that likely leads to the high kinematic viscosity at 40C that I believe is the cause of concern. Since VII's break down, Millers avoids them in their race oils as much as they can. That helps the race oils last much, much longer than many of our competitors who have higher VI's. I know this is the case for the engine oils, and I assume it is the case for gear oils, as well. Since the cold viscosity for a race oil isn't nearly as important as the performance at operating temperatures, sacrifices are made to ensure robustness at the higher temps. For a street oil, obviously things will be different. This may be what is being sought.

I thought I had read somewhere that someone had not been able to find a credible source for the performance of the oil. What I've posted was done internally, but I can provide more links to technical articles, SAE International, Race Tech Magazine, Race Engine Technology, Lube Magazine...... I can actually give a Fast Ford article, as well, but I don't put those kinds of publications up there wth the more engineering ones. There is also one from Cup Race Technology from earlier this year, but they will not give me permission to publish it.

Do y'all want me to provide any similar info on the engine oils?


Edited by 67King (12/09/13 11:52 AM)
_________________________
944T - SP3 race car, 944TS "hot rod", 968 driver, 67GTO, 66 Bronco, 10 535i M-Sport, 6.7L Cummins Ram, 07 R320CDI - all with Millers

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#3211322 - 12/09/13 01:54 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14658
Loc: Midwest
Quote:
To get to the "transmission" versus "gear" oil difference, Millers does have a transmission oil with the technology, http://performanceracingoils.com/ee-transmission-75w90-oil-p-87.html. It is the street version of the race oil. There is a philosophy that Millers has pertaining to viscometrics that likely leads to the high kinematic viscosity at 40C that I believe is the cause of concern. Since VII's break down, Millers avoids them in their race oils as much as they can. That helps the race oils last much, much longer than many of our competitors who have higher VI's. I know this is the case for the engine oils, and I assume it is the case for gear oils, as well. Since the cold viscosity for a race oil isn't nearly as important as the performance at operating temperatures, sacrifices are made to ensure robustness at the higher temps. For a street oil, obviously things will be different. This may be what is being sought.


Thanks King. I have no disagreement about the efficacy of specialized EP additives in differential oils.

My concerns were with the high viscosity of the MTL (I did previously go to the site after searching the Internet), and the friction modification wrt to the surficial interactions in the synchronizer assemblies.

Since they want to keep the additive mix IP (and I can't fault them for that, so do I), then we really can't compare conventional MTL FM chemistry with what they have in their MTL.

I was simply relating some of my formulation experiences when testing new FM's verses the interaction with conventional FM additives in MTLs.

The correct dynamic coefficient of friction in both MTLs and ATF's many times precludes the use of other suspended FM type solids because the dynamic COF is critical to the proper operation of these transmissions.
_________________________
Just pour the coffee and back away slowly! smile

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#3211509 - 12/09/13 05:15 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7097
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
Isn't a 75W-90 generally considered way too heavy a weight oil for what is called an 'MTL' in this country??

I know the Ford MTX boxes call for it, as do all of the racing sequentials and dog boxes, as well as some older foreign (Teuton and Nippon) manuals.

This is why I am wanting Millers to produce a LIGHT, Red Line MTL-like fluid, but with their NT add pack, IF it would allow the synchros/blocker rings in modern manual gearboxes to engage properly. wink
_________________________
2000 Z28 1SC 6 speed 175K miles
Red Line 0W-40/Sustina 0W-20 (20/80 mix)
Fram Ultra filter
Synpower 75W-140/4oz. XL-3
Red Line D4 in the T56

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#3211563 - 12/09/13 06:08 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: dailydriver]
67King Offline


Registered: 10/19/12
Posts: 85
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Isn't a 75W-90 generally considered way too heavy a weight oil for what is called an 'MTL' in this country??

I know the Ford MTX boxes call for it, as do all of the racing sequentials and dog boxes, as well as some older foreign (Teuton and Nippon) manuals.

This is why I am wanting Millers to produce a LIGHT, Red Line MTL-like fluid, but with their NT add pack, IF it would allow the synchros/blocker rings in modern manual gearboxes to engage properly. wink


My experience is that the majority of manuals here call for either a 75w90, or an ATF. Most of the sequentials actually spec a 75w140. I just looked up what Red Line offers, which includes a 75w90 (as well as 75w80 and 75w85). Until then, I was only familiar with BMW and Honda specifying thinner oils. Take your T-56 for example. Its precursor, the T-5, specified a 75w90 until they revised it to the "World Class" version - which I guess was some time ago, though. I know the STi's and Evo's call out 75w90, and I believe one specs a 75w140 in the transfer case? I've never even seen anything offered "off the shelf" in the parts stores for thinner than 75w90. We are starting to sell a ton of 80w90 for classic cars, though that isn't a fair comparison. We've actually got a few BMW's running the 75w90, they all love it. All the Porsches spec a 75w90, though they are transaxles.

At any rate, we've been having some discussions with Millers to try to get a thinner gear oil out. I'm hoping for an ATF-like viscosity, say a 75w80. Interestingly, the stuff the F1 and IndyCar uses isn't really oil in the conventional sense. It is more a carrier for the additives. I've seen some of the Lucas L-11, it completely separates, the liquid on top is clear! It is incredibly thin.
_________________________
944T - SP3 race car, 944TS "hot rod", 968 driver, 67GTO, 66 Bronco, 10 535i M-Sport, 6.7L Cummins Ram, 07 R320CDI - all with Millers

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#3213017 - 12/11/13 02:54 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
Olas Online   content


Registered: 12/11/13
Posts: 624
Loc: Manchester, England
FWIW, I currently have Millers NT 75w90 in the 020 gearbox in my 1982 Scirocco - it made a noticeable difference straight away and the more I drive it the smoother and slicker the gearchange becomes. I changed all of the gear linkage bushes and rods to try and tighten up the change - dint make much difference. I drained whatever was in there previously and put the Millers NT in, it made the world of difference! Their NT motor oil is good stuff too, I get more MPG and less NVH with Millers NT in the sump..

But the reason I'm posting here is this;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Archoil-AR9200-Nano-WS2-Friction-Modifier-125ml-Bottle-/370916271810
Have any of you guys seen this before? Ever used it? Good or bad experiences? I'm thinking I could buy a cheap mineral oil, and throw this in, and save a lot of money of buying more Millers!

Any input?
_________________________
1982 VW Scirocco
1457cc
98 bhp
1900 lbs
71000 miles
44mpg
Weber/Millers/Mahle/ITG/Leda/Michelin/Brembo/Pagid/Pioneer

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#3213237 - 12/11/13 09:31 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: 67King]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7097
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
Originally Posted By: 67King
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Isn't a 75W-90 generally considered way too heavy a weight oil for what is called an 'MTL' in this country??

I know the Ford MTX boxes call for it, as do all of the racing sequentials and dog boxes, as well as some older foreign (Teuton and Nippon) manuals.

This is why I am wanting Millers to produce a LIGHT, Red Line MTL-like fluid, but with their NT add pack, IF it would allow the synchros/blocker rings in modern manual gearboxes to engage properly. wink


My experience is that the majority of manuals here call for either a 75w90, or an ATF. Most of the sequentials actually spec a 75w140. I just looked up what Red Line offers, which includes a 75w90 (as well as 75w80 and 75w85). Until then, I was only familiar with BMW and Honda specifying thinner oils. Take your T-56 for example. Its precursor, the T-5, specified a 75w90 until they revised it to the "World Class" version - which I guess was some time ago, though. I know the STi's and Evo's call out 75w90, and I believe one specs a 75w140 in the transfer case? I've never even seen anything offered "off the shelf" in the parts stores for thinner than 75w90. We are starting to sell a ton of 80w90 for classic cars, though that isn't a fair comparison. We've actually got a few BMW's running the 75w90, they all love it. All the Porsches spec a 75w90, though they are transaxles.

At any rate, we've been having some discussions with Millers to try to get a thinner gear oil out. I'm hoping for an ATF-like viscosity, say a 75w80. Interestingly, the stuff the F1 and IndyCar uses isn't really oil in the conventional sense. It is more a carrier for the additives. I've seen some of the Lucas L-11, it completely separates, the liquid on top is clear! It is incredibly thin.


75W-90 is WAY TOO THICK for the synchros/blockers in a T56 to function properly.
Straight Red Line 75W-85 is probably too thick as well, although in the summer, I might drain one quart of the MTL (75W-80) in there now, and add one quart of this to the mix. wink

I will be the FIRST IN LINE to try a Millers 75W-80 weight gearbox GL-4 oil with their NT add pack, IF they can make it work. thumbsup smile
_________________________
2000 Z28 1SC 6 speed 175K miles
Red Line 0W-40/Sustina 0W-20 (20/80 mix)
Fram Ultra filter
Synpower 75W-140/4oz. XL-3
Red Line D4 in the T56

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#3213515 - 12/11/13 02:31 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: Olas]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
But the reason I'm posting here is this;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Archoil-AR9200-Nano-WS2-Friction-Modifier-125ml-Bottle-/370916271810
Have any of you guys seen this before? Ever used it? Good or bad experiences? I'm thinking I could buy a cheap mineral oil, and throw this in, and save a lot of money of buying more Millers!

Here is their manufacturers/distributers links:

http://www.evergreenamerica.com/index.cfm/products/engine-treatment/

http://www.archoil.com/index.cfm/product...anti-corrosion/

These were both old bookmarks of mine. It is hard to remember details at this point, but I "think" the second link was making it and selling it in South America and Asia, but not the US. I don't know what form of WS2 they use. Mostly

Oddly, I can't find ar9200. I did find this http://0378e50.netsolstores.com/ar2400-clp-gun-cleaner-lubrication-and-protection-4oz.aspx from Archoil.

I just don't remember. I looked at so many sites over a year or so.

I am also not sure how much difference there is between the practical results of WS2 or the IF version if the regular stuff is small enough.

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#3213645 - 12/11/13 05:16 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: 67King]
martinq Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 1023
Loc: ON, Canada
Originally Posted By: 67King
I just looked up what Red Line offers, which includes a 75w90 (as well as 75w80 and 75w85). Until then, I was only familiar with BMW and Honda specifying thinner oils.

Along the same lines we also have:

GM/Pennzoil Synchromesh
Amsoil MTF
Pentosin MTF2
Ford XT-M5-QS
Valvoline Synchromesh


Edited by martinq (12/11/13 05:17 PM)

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#3218244 - 12/16/13 09:16 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: dailydriver]
67King Offline


Registered: 10/19/12
Posts: 85
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Originally Posted By: dailydriver

I will be the FIRST IN LINE to try a Millers 75W-80 weight gearbox GL-4 oil with their NT add pack, IF they can make it work. thumbsup smile


Trust me, you are NOT ALONE in your desire for a 75w80-ish (ATF like viscosity) gear oil. I'm desperately trying to get it going, but I'm just one distributor. We actually had some discussions at PRI about it. I have some friends (former fellow Ford engineers) who run a race outfit in SE Michigan who would be a vendor of all of our oils if we could supply them transmission oil for their Mustangs. I'm working on it, trust me.
_________________________
944T - SP3 race car, 944TS "hot rod", 968 driver, 67GTO, 66 Bronco, 10 535i M-Sport, 6.7L Cummins Ram, 07 R320CDI - all with Millers

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#3220006 - 12/17/13 09:01 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: 67King]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7097
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
Originally Posted By: 67King
I have some friends (former fellow Ford engineers) who run a race outfit in SE Michigan who would be a vendor of all of our oils if we could supply them transmission oil for their Mustangs. I'm working on it, trust me.


One of the Grand Am teams, I'm guessing? shrug
_________________________
2000 Z28 1SC 6 speed 175K miles
Red Line 0W-40/Sustina 0W-20 (20/80 mix)
Fram Ultra filter
Synpower 75W-140/4oz. XL-3
Red Line D4 in the T56

Top
#3220769 - 12/18/13 02:48 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: dailydriver]
67King Offline


Registered: 10/19/12
Posts: 85
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: 67King
I have some friends (former fellow Ford engineers) who run a race outfit in SE Michigan who would be a vendor of all of our oils if we could supply them transmission oil for their Mustangs. I'm working on it, trust me.


One of the Grand Am teams, I'm guessing? shrug


Mostly, but also some World Challenge, and they do some NASA racing, too.

Side note, since we are talking about gear oils......feedback from Bryan Herta on our gear oil:
IndyCar results from gear oil

Note the 190% comes from a prior best of 2500 miles (typical 1700), to 5,000 with the NT. Good stuff, I am really hoping I can get some in a 75w80-like viscosity, which is very close to ATF.
_________________________
944T - SP3 race car, 944TS "hot rod", 968 driver, 67GTO, 66 Bronco, 10 535i M-Sport, 6.7L Cummins Ram, 07 R320CDI - all with Millers

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#3221036 - 12/18/13 08:29 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: 67King]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7097
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
Originally Posted By: 67King
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: 67King
I have some friends (former fellow Ford engineers) who run a race outfit in SE Michigan who would be a vendor of all of our oils if we could supply them transmission oil for their Mustangs. I'm working on it, trust me.


One of the Grand Am teams, I'm guessing? shrug


Mostly, but also some World Challenge, and they do some NASA racing, too.

Side note, since we are talking about gear oils......feedback from Bryan Herta on our gear oil:
IndyCar results from gear oil

Note the 190% comes from a prior best of 2500 miles (typical 1700), to 5,000 with the NT. Good stuff, I am really hoping I can get some in a 75w80-like viscosity, which is very close to ATF.


Yes, I am VERY HAPPY with the 75W-140 CRX NT in my diff right now!! thumbsup cool
_________________________
2000 Z28 1SC 6 speed 175K miles
Red Line 0W-40/Sustina 0W-20 (20/80 mix)
Fram Ultra filter
Synpower 75W-140/4oz. XL-3
Red Line D4 in the T56

Top
#3221205 - 12/19/13 12:44 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: 67King]
martinq Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 1023
Loc: ON, Canada
Originally Posted By: 67King
I am really hoping I can get some in a 75w80-like viscosity, which is very close to ATF.

What about a 70w80 or 70w85 instead?

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#3221370 - 12/19/13 08:22 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: martinq]
67King Offline


Registered: 10/19/12
Posts: 85
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: 67King
I am really hoping I can get some in a 75w80-like viscosity, which is very close to ATF.

What about a 70w80 or 70w85 instead?


Not sure I understand. That is what I'm hoping to get (well, not the 85, but (80+90)/2.....).
_________________________
944T - SP3 race car, 944TS "hot rod", 968 driver, 67GTO, 66 Bronco, 10 535i M-Sport, 6.7L Cummins Ram, 07 R320CDI - all with Millers

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