3M thinsulate acoustic for sale

[oilmaven]

Hi all...I don't know how many people on this site ever considered adding insulation to their vehicles but for those of us who have, the difference is amazing. The BEST stuff out there is the batt sound absorber developed by 3M. I was able to buy some of it a couple of years ago (from a marine supplier...who no longer carries it) and used it in my Honda Accord. High-end car makers (Acura, BMW, etc.) use it because of it's light weight and effectiveness. It is a phenomenal sound absorber and also adds thermal insulation. Although I did a complete installation (behind the doors and all interior panels...didn't do the headliner), adding this stuff to problem areas (doors in particular) will decrease noise levels a LOT. The Honda was luxury car quiet when I was done (VERY noisy before)...the new owners commented how quiet the car was when I sold it (they looked at me like I was crazy when I told them what I did to make it that way).

Up to this point, it was not available to the public but in my searching I see that someone must have gotten a quantity of it and is reselling it on Ebay Motors. Looks like it comes in a minimum quantity of 25 ft. long by 5 ft. wide (with additional quantities available). It's also the good stuff...2 inches thick (which is what I used) vs. the 1 inch version. From what I can tell, their pricing is about 1/3 of what you'd pay (even if you could get it) from a marine wholesaler (the only place I've ever seen it sold...and only in 90 ft. rolls...but they won't sell it to individuals either).

This product is LOTS easier to work with than other products (forget "dynamat" type products...they're only intended to reduce vibration on metal panels...they don't do much to reduce overall noise). I'm going to place an order while it's available (don't know how much they have).

I don't know how to copy the link but if you search Ebay Motors for "3M thinsulate acoustic" you'll find the ad.

 

[JHZR2]

Not sure if random placement effects moisture retention and then rust formation.

 

[oilmaven]

If you research this material you'll determine that it is a hydrophobic, nonwoven, non-linting polymeric micro fiber. In other words, it does not attract or hold moisture and is ideal for the automotive and marine applications 3M designed it for.

It was installed in my Honda for over 2 years (before I sold it) and there were never any signs of moisture retention or rust issues using this material...it's very different from other materials used for similar purposes in that regard. I doubt that Acura or BMW would use it if that was a problem.

 

[Da Game]

Thanks this is an item I can use!

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: oilmaven
If you research this material you'll determine that it is a hydrophobic, nonwoven, non-linting polymeric micro fiber. In other words, it does not attract or hold moisture and is ideal for the automotive and marine applications 3M designed it for.

It was installed in my Honda for over 2 years (before I sold it) and there were never any signs of moisture retention or rust issues using this material...it's very different from other materials used for similar purposes in that regard. I doubt that Acura or BMW would use it if that was a problem.


2 years may be too short a duration to know. I have no doubt it is suitable in those applications when applied in some way with some instructions. The question really is if it laying against sheet metal in a retrofit is an acceptable manner.

Hydrophobicity doesn't mean that there can't be moisture in the interstitial spaces. Add no airflow and you may have a more moist atmosphere than you would otherwise.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: oilmaven
If you research this material you'll determine that it is a hydrophobic, nonwoven, non-linting polymeric micro fiber. In other words, it does not attract or hold moisture and is ideal for the automotive and marine applications 3M designed it for.

It was installed in my Honda for over 2 years (before I sold it) and there were never any signs of moisture retention or rust issues using this material...it's very different from other materials used for similar purposes in that regard. I doubt that Acura or BMW would use it if that was a problem.


2 years may be too short a duration to know. I have no doubt it is suitable in those applications when applied in some way with some instructions. The question really is if it laying against sheet metal in a retrofit is an acceptable manner.

Hydrophobicity doesn't mean that there can't be moisture in the interstitial spaces. Add no airflow and you may have a more moist atmosphere than you would otherwise.


I think that's a good question. No doubt, you have to be somewhat careful when doing sound deadening in a car. I've never used this stuff, as it's fairly new (in terms of availability). It seems that most guys using it aftermarket are still using a product like a closed-cell foam applied directly to the sheet metal, along with a constrained layer damper (like Dynamat), then putting this stuff in other places which are not in direct contact with the sheet metal.

This looks like great stuff, but I don't think it eliminates the need for products like Dynamat, which are still way better at damping resonance in the sheet metal. It does however drastically reduce the amount of that stuff you really need, saving a lot of money and a lot of weight!

I thoroughly applied various stuff (traditional sound damper, closed-cell foam and mass-loaded vinyl) to my car about 5 1/2 years ago, and I had the doors opened up over the summer. There are no signs of rust or moisture issues, and obviously I see a lot of rain. That said, I could see problems arising if you're careless when working in the doors.

Thanks to the OP for the link, that is a crazy-good deal on this stuff from what I've seen elsewhere.

 

[oilmaven]

When I used the material I simply spray glued it to the back of the door and interior panels. Air spaces were retained (in the case of the doors, the material is inside of the plastic moisture barrier...it's not in direct contact with the exterior metal). Resonance damping materials have their place and DO have a big affect on noise caused by vibration in metal panels. The problem is that covering more than 25% or so of the panel is essentially a waste and doesn't provide greater dampening. Covering every square inch of metal with dampener does not reduce overall noise that much (as attested to by those that spent large sums on expensive dampener products only to find that their ride wasn't that much quieter). Also, applying it to floors doesn't have that much affect because the manufacturers usually have already installed a pretty heavy dampening mat there and the floor pan is pretty rigid and not prone to much vibration...although it looks impressive. And it is heavy stuff...adds considerable weight to the vehicle if overdone.

Mass loaded vinyl is a different animal as it is a sound blocker and ideal for the floor. It should be installed over a constraining layer for maximum effectiveness (1/4 in. closed cell foam works great but cheap foam underlayment material from the local home improvement store works fine too)...all seams need to be vinyl taped to prevent noise from leaking through. It's also very heavy (hence the term "mass"). I use this under the carpet and have used the 1/2 lb./sq. ft. version to minimize weight (it's also available in 1 lb. and 2 lb. per sq. ft.). The heavier stuff works better but I've found that the 1/2 lb. works well enough. Installed correctly, this actually prevents moisture from reaching the metal floor...never had a rust problem using it.

I've been sound deadening my vehicles for years. Factory sound deadening is not usually very thorough and varies depending on the vehicle (higher-end vehicles obviously have more). My Honda had only a thin layer of jute behind the carpet in the footwells. There was absolutely NONE anywhere else...including behind the door panels. It was NOT a quiet vehicle when I got it...but after installing the MLV under the floor and the acoustic insulation behind the doors and interior panels was as quiet as a luxury car.

I originally used carpet padding...the open cell type which is the best cheap material for sound deadening (and also holds moisture like a sponge). Closed cell foam won't hold moisture and is lighter but is not as good at absorbing sound as the open cell type...although it's a better thermal insulator. I installed it everywhere in my PT Cruiser (under the carpet, behind the doors, behind the hatch and interior panels including stuffing the door pillars where it obviously came in contact with metal). The girl that bought the car from me several years ago lives locally and I see it from time to time...last I saw it the car still appears to be rust free. I wouldn't use the stuff again but it does work great for those on a budget.

BTW...I checked on the ad for this stuff and it's been closed...apparently it sold out already? It was set up to run for a month and the ad was closed after only 2 days? No matter...I placed my order early.

 

[mechtech2]

What qualifies you to determine what is best, in your very limited experience?
Plain old cheap jute carpet backing is very good. So is underlayment for snap together flooring [this is thin - you can double it]
3M stuff is always outrageously priced - there are excellent alternatives.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: oilmaven
When I used the material I simply spray glued it to the back of the door and interior panels. Air spaces were retained (in the case of the doors, the material is inside of the plastic moisture barrier...it's not in direct contact with the exterior metal).


So you affixed it to the door card that makes the interior of the door? i.e. the thing you pop off to access the door innards? In any car door Ive opened, the vapor barrier is inboard of all the door sheetmetal, and the door card which makes the interior surface of the door in the passenger cabin, is tight up against the vapor barrier. Not a lot of space.


Originally Posted By: oilmaven
I originally used carpet padding...the open cell type which is the best cheap material for sound deadening (and also holds moisture like a sponge).


I envision this stuff to look like a batt of fiberglass insulation or like the thinsulate insulation in gloves. Even if the fiber is hydrophobic, the interstitial spaces could hold moisture like a sponge. THis would create a unique microclimate that is more moist, even if the fibers arent "wetted".

TO overcome this, OEMs may need to double paint or other rustproofing. Just speculation, Im just guessing, but this is my concern.

 

[sleddriver]

If I remember correctly, you did your old Volvo? I experimented extensively with my old 900T as it was rather noisy. I mainly used 'Q-pads' I bought from a local bodyshop supplier. Very heavy, sticky on one side. Started with sheet metal closest to my ears and worked my way out.

The V70 though is much quieter from the factory. I've stuffed the empty space in the rear tailgate door with 4" open cell foam and the interior tailgate panel is currently off because the clips broke yet again.

The driver side door panel is also currently off as I'm tracking down a very annoying, intermitant squeek (emphasis on intermitant) > 55mph. I noticed Volvo used plastic snap-in caps to seal the holes in the metal door from the exterior sheet metal. I can take a photo and post here.

 

[sleddriver]

Sounds like you've been experimenting with this for quite awhile. I did too about 17 yrs ago with an old SAAB 900T.

You're correct that excessive covering not only wastes $$$ & adds excessive weight, but results in few additional gains above the recommended coverage area. I have some constrained layer damping tape from 3M I've used and also aquired a demo kit from them showing just how little needs to be used to significantly damped sheet metal. I've used it in the metal case of my desktop and outside on the AC compressor/condenser fan unit made of . . sheet metal. The whole thing vibrates when on.

Taping all seams is critical as an air leak breaks the barrier. Thus the importance of keeping weather stripping soft and continuous around doors.

I looked up the 3M stuff on their site and read up on it. Very interesting. . . and expensive. The luxury yacht builders seem to love it though. Great application though for such a product: Marine environment.

Thanks for the post!

 

[oilmaven]

Whoa...I didn't claim to be an expert...anymore than others who go into detail about lubes, guns, computers, etc. on this site...not sure why such a strong reaction there. I've just done a lot of research on what materials are available for sound attenuation and how they work. I have always enjoyed taking my vehicles apart and installing sound deadener to make them quieter (I probably need to get out more)...and I agree that there are a lot of "off the shelf" products that work very well at reasonable cost (my first project...a Dodge minivan involved jute carpet padding mentioned here). I still believe this stuff works great...and this was a deal. Moving on...

 

[JHZR2]

It may well be. Nothing wrong with people questioning different aspects of implementing stuff like this, which may well be an excellent idea... Its especially important for those of us who keep cars a LONG time.

 

[user52165]

Sounds (not pun intended) good but 2" thick? Doesn't that limit where it can be installed? For example, an inner door can get quite crowded.

 

[mechtech2]

"The BEST stuff out there..." Hmm... OK.

Watch out what you put inside door panels. They get wet and drain.

 

[sleddriver]

Quote:
What qualifies you to determine what is best, in your very limited experience?

Really? And your qualifications are? Please tell us of your extensive experience regarding acoustical properties of these materials re: NVH?

Why the hate? What's the point? The purpose of this forum is to exchange ideas and what works & what doesn't. The OP related what he had done and in fact, had used the material? Have you?

What qualifies you to make such an idiotic comment, with no basis in fact? By posting such, you just proved your own point. Whether you realize it is another matter. . .

All the hallmarks of a spiteful drive-by, knee-jerk post contributing nothing to the discussion.

Quote:
Plain old cheap jute carpet backing is very good. So is underlayment for snap together flooring [this is thin - you can double it

"Jute carpet backing"??? "Very good"??? Compared to what...nothing? Based on what? Your extensive experience? Do you believe jute carpet backing is used in any expensive, quiet luxury vehicles currently in production?

"Flooring underlayment"??? Thin flooring underlayment??? Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about if you believe this is capable of attenuating low-frequency road & engine noise in a vehicle.


Quote:
3M stuff is always outrageously priced - there are excellent alternatives.

Again, compared to what? "Cheap jute carpet backing"? "Thin flooring underlayment"? What are these un-named 'excellent alternatives" of which you speak?

Sounds to me like you have a bias against 3M & their products as a whole.


Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Watch out what you put inside door panels. They get wet and drain.

First you attack the OP for his post, NOW you're offering 'helpful advice'?

Clearly reading & comprehension are not two of your strong points as you missed this in his post:

Quote:
When I used the material I simply spray glued it to the back of the door and interior panels. Air spaces were retained (in the case of the doors, the material is inside of the plastic moisture barrier...it's not in direct contact with the exterior metal)


"The Man who does not read has no advantage over the Man who cannot read" - Mark Twain.

"Tis better to keep your mouth shut & be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt." - Mark Twain.

 

[Bgallagher]

Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Quote:
What qualifies you to determine what is best, in your very limited experience?

Really? And your qualifications are? Please tell us of your extensive experience regarding acoustical properties of these materials re: NVH?

Why the hate? What's the point? The purpose of this forum is to exchange ideas and what works & what doesn't. The OP related what he had done and in fact, had used the material? Have you?

What qualifies you to make such an idiotic comment, with no basis in fact? By posting such, you just proved your own point. Whether you realize it is another matter. . .

All the hallmarks of a spiteful drive-by, knee-jerk post contributing nothing to the discussion.

Quote:
Plain old cheap jute carpet backing is very good. So is underlayment for snap together flooring [this is thin - you can double it

"Jute carpet backing"??? "Very good"??? Compared to what...nothing? Based on what? Your extensive experience? Do you believe jute carpet backing is used in any expensive, quiet luxury vehicles currently in production?

"Flooring underlayment"??? Thin flooring underlayment??? Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about if you believe this is capable of attenuating low-frequency road & engine noise in a vehicle.


Quote:
3M stuff is always outrageously priced - there are excellent alternatives.

Again, compared to what? "Cheap jute carpet backing"? "Thin flooring underlayment"? What are these un-named 'excellent alternatives" of which you speak?

Sounds to me like you have a bias against 3M & their products as a whole.


Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Watch out what you put inside door panels. They get wet and drain.

First you attack the OP for his post, NOW you're offering 'helpful advice'?

Clearly reading & comprehension are not two of your strong points as you missed this in his post:

Quote:
When I used the material I simply spray glued it to the back of the door and interior panels. Air spaces were retained (in the case of the doors, the material is inside of the plastic moisture barrier...it's not in direct contact with the exterior metal)


"The Man who does not read has no advantage over the Man who cannot read" - Mark Twain.

"Tis better to keep your mouth shut & be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt." - Mark Twain.


+1 You beat me to it.

 

[SZR48207]

I bit and bought a roll.

But yikes, the shipping is NOT cheap. For UPS Ground from. El Paso to Oklahoma City is $165. That's more than I paid for the item.

The auction could have been more clear about this, but the picture shows that each roll is nearly as wide as a wood pallet and almost 4 feet tall.

I'll use what i can and then sell the rest locally to make up for the shipping cost