Fuel power put to the test - pictures!
- Thread starter SteveD2
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I would like to add that I have a lawn mower engine that builds up deposits much worse than this one. The amazing things is the my lawn mower engine doesn't seem to burn a drop of oil. Inefficient combustion is the cause of many of these dirty utility engines. The factory Briggs&Stratton manual even says to remove the head and clean the carbon every 300 hours of operation.
So, this dirty engine isn't necessarily the result of a mechanically challenged (politically correct verbage) engine but quite possibly the result of a very inefficient design. Every mower engine that I've ever owned has been dirty like this one. FWIW, I've never seen any fuel additive help this problem and I've tried quite a few. The one product that gave a repeated improvement in opertion was Schaeffer's Neutra.
So, this dirty engine isn't necessarily the result of a mechanically challenged (politically correct verbage) engine but quite possibly the result of a very inefficient design. Every mower engine that I've ever owned has been dirty like this one. FWIW, I've never seen any fuel additive help this problem and I've tried quite a few. The one product that gave a repeated improvement in opertion was Schaeffer's Neutra.
I am giving balance to your conclusions Sir, from our testing that was published at lubecontrol.com.
No pix because LC and FP did not ask for them in the scientific paper authored by Molakule.
Did you write this from above ?
I don't have a clue how much product you ran and I think the engine is eating oil. How many times have you noted Mola or myself posting bull crap here to deceive people ? Having said that I am not saying you are you are being decpetive, just not being balanced and a guys business hangs in the "balance".
Reading that post just seemed to make assumptions that may or may not be valid depending on your testing protocal , pix or no.
I will leave you alone but that needed to be said.
Terry
No pix because LC and FP did not ask for them in the scientific paper authored by Molakule.
Did you write this from above ?
Or am I imagining that ? I'll guarantee there are those who will read that conclusion and run from the product. So your testing efforts are appreciated but your conclusions may be questioned for balance.
I don't have a clue how much product you ran and I think the engine is eating oil. How many times have you noted Mola or myself posting bull crap here to deceive people ? Having said that I am not saying you are you are being decpetive, just not being balanced and a guys business hangs in the "balance".
Reading that post just seemed to make assumptions that may or may not be valid depending on your testing protocal , pix or no.
I will leave you alone but that needed to be said.
Terry
Terry, whether I am biased or not is irrelevant. The pictures do not lie. Like I said, I really do want this stuff to work well, otherwise I wouldn't have spent so much money on it. (believe me, I am one of the cheapest people you'll ever meet) I believe you are biased towards FP, considering the fact that they have paid you money. Regardless, I'm not saying your test was wrong, but personally I don't think the results are worth reading without pics, dyno tests, GPH fuel useage tests, etc. I did say above that the engine does seem to be using less fuel, although I don't see any reason for that.
Bro, something is not right and Mola is my go to guy on chemistry so when he has time we'll see what he has to say.
Please understand this, I am biased toward this product NOW because for the money this is the best you can get. Not when we tested it. Odis paid up front for a test and said draw your own conclusions, we did AFTER testing it.
I get paid FEES to independently test lubes and adds and interpret the collected data, not promote them. I sure have not gotten rich from testing Auto-RX or Lubecontrol
But I know the products are a great value because I test many other products I NEVER mention here..
If this was a defective product I would be the first to warn all here away from it.
Terry
[ October 23, 2004, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
Please understand this, I am biased toward this product NOW because for the money this is the best you can get. Not when we tested it. Odis paid up front for a test and said draw your own conclusions, we did AFTER testing it.
I get paid FEES to independently test lubes and adds and interpret the collected data, not promote them. I sure have not gotten rich from testing Auto-RX or Lubecontrol
If this was a defective product I would be the first to warn all here away from it.
Terry
[ October 23, 2004, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
6 hours, aproximately 1.5 gallons of fuel. Oil level appears to be the same as when I started this test. By the way, the oil is Pennzoil long life 15w40.
If anything, the deposits appear to be getting worse. (which should be normal in the operation of a small flathead engine) Note that there are a few small raindrops on the head in that picture...
If anything, the deposits appear to be getting worse. (which should be normal in the operation of a small flathead engine) Note that there are a few small raindrops on the head in that picture...
I am not too familiar with these engines, but I notice a consistency in that the piston roof and squish area of the head is very clean compared to the plug and valve areas. Why doesn't the piston roof foul up like the rest? My only reasoning is that the area where we are seeing a lot of carbon buildup is much cooler relative to the clean areas... my 2 cents.
Those small engines are normally set to run rich. It makes them start easily, and run smooth when cold, but when things warm up and all the fuel evaporates, you get lots of CO in the exhaust, and carbon buildup.
I am going to take a shot in the dark and assume you are not involved in any scientific profession. Your uncontrolled test on one engine does NOTHING to prove or disprove what results anyone else has seen with a different engine.
Faulty logic my friend - and I have never used LC or FP and have no horse in this race. I would like to see others putting in the same effort as you though - especially from those with perceived positive findings.
EDIT - my 12hp single cylinder side valve B&S started clanging and smoking and I junked it. It was about 10 hard years old. Replaced it with a mounting hole compatible 15hp OHV single cylinder B&S and the lawnmower runs sweet now
[ October 23, 2004, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: keith ]
The combustion chamber and piston are in an area with good combustion. The area where the valves are is an area with "poor" combustion ,so the deposits. Flat head engines have high emissions .
Zmoz. Thanks for the testing and efforts.
Quite obviously this is one test on one machine. All tests will have variables and the law of large numbers is essential to get realistic data. You are proving a point however with this machine and this product, whether this is indicative of it universally or not needs further testing.
Quite obviously this is one test on one machine. All tests will have variables and the law of large numbers is essential to get realistic data. You are proving a point however with this machine and this product, whether this is indicative of it universally or not needs further testing.
I don't understand how you think the FP will clean the eingine up in 6 hours? If I were to run it in one tank of gas in my car, it would take about 6 hours of roadtime to burn one tank of fuel ...at this point, were I to tear my eingine apart, i am sure it would still be diry.
you have not given it nearly enough time ...also you really nead to at least clean, if not replace the spark plug .
a fouled plug causes in efficant combustion.
BTW Please excuse any and all spelling errors...my keyboard sometimes doesn't transmit the letter I push ..it just moves right on to the next one .....gotta not be so cheap and spend $10.00 on a new one !
you have not given it nearly enough time ...also you really nead to at least clean, if not replace the spark plug .
a fouled plug causes in efficant combustion.
BTW Please excuse any and all spelling errors...my keyboard sometimes doesn't transmit the letter I push ..it just moves right on to the next one .....gotta not be so cheap and spend $10.00 on a new one !
3 comments:
first, your profile says you're a sysadmin. the irony is not lost on me that a software guy is doing some of the very little real product testing on this board.
second, i'm still waiting to hear how you managed to hook up the engine to the pool pump! the rpm is in the correct range, even? how many hp are the electric motors, usually?
third, some data is better than none, so flawed or not, your test is valuable. (thanks.)
-michael
first, your profile says you're a sysadmin. the irony is not lost on me that a software guy is doing some of the very little real product testing on this board.
second, i'm still waiting to hear how you managed to hook up the engine to the pool pump! the rpm is in the correct range, even? how many hp are the electric motors, usually?
third, some data is better than none, so flawed or not, your test is valuable. (thanks.)
-michael
MolaKule
Staff member
ZmOz, one question and a couple of comments.
Are you using a new head gasket each time? The reason I ask is that in the last pic, there seems to be some added staining in the South East corner, which might indicated a head gasket leak or uneven head bolt torqueing.
It appears from the last pic that the exhaust valve is certainly becoming cleaner.
It appears that there is increased fouling of the plug, indicating a very rich mixture, oil consumption, weak spark, or possibly your valves are not sealing which could result in incomplete combustion.
Has the compression changed any?
Whoops, that's two questions.
Are you using a new head gasket each time? The reason I ask is that in the last pic, there seems to be some added staining in the South East corner, which might indicated a head gasket leak or uneven head bolt torqueing.
It appears from the last pic that the exhaust valve is certainly becoming cleaner.
It appears that there is increased fouling of the plug, indicating a very rich mixture, oil consumption, weak spark, or possibly your valves are not sealing which could result in incomplete combustion.
Has the compression changed any?
Whoops, that's two questions.
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Yeah. This was so conspicous that I can't believe that it took this long for anyone to mention it.
ZmOz ..what's your opinion on the exhaust valve there? Better? Worse? It's actually "definable" in the picture now.
I don't have a dime in either FP or you engine so ...
I think that's white crud on that valve not clean metal. My plugs get white crud from FP, but I didn't consider it a big deal
We were all waiting to see who would mention it first
ZmOz: Is the valve actually cleaner or there just a layer of white stuff on it?
MolaKule
Staff member
I have been running with and without FP in the following pieces of equipment for some time (about 2 years) and can give you some observations of the plugs and piston crowns (The fuel WITH FP is 2oz. FP in 6 gallons 89 Octane non-ethanol Fuel, fuel without FP is 89 Octane non-ethanol Fuel, no fuel stabilizer except FP, none use or consume any detectable oil during whole season, plugs are changed every two years or during experimentation; Crankcase oil is either Schaeffer's 15W40 or Mobil 1 10W30, depending on seasonal temperature; all engines run at peak temperature and under heavy loads):
Push Lawn Mower - MTD 5.5 hp B&S Quantum Engine, runs fairly rich.
Without FP - Medium Black deposits on piston crown, black deposits on plugs
With FP - thin brown deposits on piston crown, light brown film on plugs, no black deposits.
Garden Tiller, Sears - B&S 6 Hp runs fairly lean:
Without FP - very thin black deposits on piston crown, thin brown deposits on plugs.
With FP - light and thin brown deposits on piston crowns, thin reddish to gray deposits on plugs, no black deposits on plugs.
Garden Tiller - MTD 5 hp B&S, approx the same as Sears Garden tiller.
Chipper/Shreader - Sears 8 Hp (monster) B&S engine, runs rich mixture:
Without FP - Thick black deposits on piston crown, thin black deposits on plugs.
With FP - thin brown deposits on piston crowns, thin reddish to gray deposits on plugs, no black deposits on plugs.
Custom Wood Splitter, 16 HP Cast-Iron Kohler 341 with aluminum head, Runs very rich: Same obsevered indications as Sears Chipper Shreader.
Coleman 5kW generator, Tecumseh 13 Hp engine; Runs very rich; Same obsevered indications as Sears Chipper Shreader.
The only head removal was for the custom Wood Splitter's Kohler last year when it developed a slight head gasket leak; head had medium-to-light black deposits on it, easily removed by soaking in LC.
Addendum: No pictures were taken, since these were simply observations written down by me and not funded by LC or Dyson.
[ October 24, 2004, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
Push Lawn Mower - MTD 5.5 hp B&S Quantum Engine, runs fairly rich.
Without FP - Medium Black deposits on piston crown, black deposits on plugs
With FP - thin brown deposits on piston crown, light brown film on plugs, no black deposits.
Garden Tiller, Sears - B&S 6 Hp runs fairly lean:
Without FP - very thin black deposits on piston crown, thin brown deposits on plugs.
With FP - light and thin brown deposits on piston crowns, thin reddish to gray deposits on plugs, no black deposits on plugs.
Garden Tiller - MTD 5 hp B&S, approx the same as Sears Garden tiller.
Chipper/Shreader - Sears 8 Hp (monster) B&S engine, runs rich mixture:
Without FP - Thick black deposits on piston crown, thin black deposits on plugs.
With FP - thin brown deposits on piston crowns, thin reddish to gray deposits on plugs, no black deposits on plugs.
Custom Wood Splitter, 16 HP Cast-Iron Kohler 341 with aluminum head, Runs very rich: Same obsevered indications as Sears Chipper Shreader.
Coleman 5kW generator, Tecumseh 13 Hp engine; Runs very rich; Same obsevered indications as Sears Chipper Shreader.
The only head removal was for the custom Wood Splitter's Kohler last year when it developed a slight head gasket leak; head had medium-to-light black deposits on it, easily removed by soaking in LC.
Addendum: No pictures were taken, since these were simply observations written down by me and not funded by LC or Dyson.
[ October 24, 2004, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
ZmOz,
Just got back in town from a long weekend, interesting pics.
Many have seen immediate improvement in one tank of gas in a lawnmower so please do not discount their experiences. Different problems will see different time table on results. Before I ever sold FP I had a Honda push mower and it had been used by my brother-in-law at college and was in very bad condition. Everytime I started it up and engaged the blade it would die. I stopped messing with it and used my neighbors mower. I spoke with Odis and added FP and he advised it would smoke on start up and wait for 15 minutes. It smoked (a lot) and I waited. After 15 minutes I engaged the the blade and it did not even hesitate, no power loss at all and it has run great since. This is one of the many instances that convinced me this FP was for real.
As for your mower, it will clean it up, but it may take several tanks. Also how old is the mower? How long has this carbon buildup been there without fuel or the engine being run?
Jeff
[ October 24, 2004, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: lcd ]
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