Engine Damage caused from 0W20/5W20?

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Today's dino 5W-20 is very much a superior oil to the 5W-30 dino of the mid '80's.


The same can be said for today's 5W30 oil as well, in fact for any grade oil made today. 20 grade oils while very good are not the only oils that improved.

 

[Brent_G]

In my opinion it is quite a vague question. In NA we are unable to drive our cars hard enough to get the oil temps up. Chances are the XW20 in most cars is thicker than a XW30 would be due to short tripping/low speeds not getting the oil temps up to 200 or higher. I personally run 5w20 in our built Dodge 440. The engine has dynoed at a bit over 600 hp, but it is only drove on the street with mild WOT. It also has countless 1/4 passes while spraying 150hp shot of nitrous with no ill effects. We have an oil pressure/temp gauge in it and almost never see over 170 for a temp and pressure is compairable to the 15w40 the engine ran prior.It has around 17k on it with 10k or so on the 5w20. The engine is converted to solid roller valvetrain, and the oil is a high Zn/Phos oil as well.

At the end of the day i would always follow what the MFR specs, as there is no reason to second guess something they spent millions on researching/testing. The engine in most cars usually outlasts the rest of the body, and with the new auto/CVT transmissions, I would be way more concerned about those going out before you ever run into an oil related engine problem. Our local Toyota dealer has an 08 Tundra with over 400k on the truck using only 5w20 and it is only used for towing cars for dealer trades. It has had nothing but standard repairs to the engine(Plugs/Wires/Belts) and still runs well. The truck is also on its 3rd trans.

Honestly we over maintain our engines, and never seem to worry about the rest.

Just my .02

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: Brent_G
In my opinion it is quite a vague question. In NA we are unable to drive our cars hard enough to get the oil temps up. Chances are the XW20 in most cars is thicker than a XW30 would be due to short tripping/low speeds not getting the oil temps up to 200 or higher. I personally run 5w20 in our built Dodge 440. The engine has dynoed at a bit over 600 hp, but it is only drove on the street with mild WOT. It also has countless 1/4 passes while spraying 150hp shot of nitrous with no ill effects. We have an oil pressure/temp gauge in it and almost never see over 170 for a temp and pressure is compairable to the 15w40 the engine ran prior.It has around 17k on it with 10k or so on the 5w20. The engine is converted to solid roller valvetrain, and the oil is a high Zn/Phos oil as well.

At the end of the day i would always follow what the MFR specs, as there is no reason to second guess something they spent millions on researching/testing. The engine in most cars usually outlasts the rest of the body, and with the new auto/CVT transmissions, I would be way more concerned about those going out before you ever run into an oil related engine problem. Our local Toyota dealer has an 08 Tundra with over 400k on the truck using only 5w20 and it is only used for towing cars for dealer trades. It has had nothing but standard repairs to the engine(Plugs/Wires/Belts) and still runs well. The truck is also on its 3rd trans.

Honestly we over maintain our engines, and never seem to worry about the rest.

Just my .02


Well said. I'll give you .25!

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: Brent_G
In my opinion it is quite a vague question. In NA we are unable to drive our cars hard enough to get the oil temps up. Chances are the XW20 in most cars is thicker than a XW30 would be due to short tripping/low speeds not getting the oil temps up to 200 or higher. I personally run 5w20 in our built Dodge 440. The engine has dynoed at a bit over 600 hp, but it is only drove on the street with mild WOT. It also has countless 1/4 passes while spraying 150hp shot of nitrous with no ill effects. We have an oil pressure/temp gauge in it and almost never see over 170 for a temp and pressure is compairable to the 15w40 the engine ran prior.It has around 17k on it with 10k or so on the 5w20. The engine is converted to solid roller valvetrain, and the oil is a high Zn/Phos oil as well.

At the end of the day i would always follow what the MFR specs, as there is no reason to second guess something they spent millions on researching/testing. The engine in most cars usually outlasts the rest of the body, and with the new auto/CVT transmissions, I would be way more concerned about those going out before you ever run into an oil related engine problem. Our local Toyota dealer has an 08 Tundra with over 400k on the truck using only 5w20 and it is only used for towing cars for dealer trades. It has had nothing but standard repairs to the engine(Plugs/Wires/Belts) and still runs well. The truck is also on its 3rd trans.

Honestly we over maintain our engines, and never seem to worry about the rest.

Just my .02


Well said. I'll give you .25!

I'll give another .25!

What most don't fully understand is the concept of operational viscosity or how much viscosity reserve or safety margin that's still retained running a 20wt oil.
Put another way, a 2.6cP @ 150C HTHSV 5W-20 oil has a HTHSV at 90C of around 7cP. Is there a modern engine on the planet that requires a 7cP oil? None that i know of. The risk of bearing wiping may occur as the viscosity approaches 3.5cP and you'll need oil temp's af 230C for that to happen. Most engines for which a 20wt oil is specified may never see even 100C oil temp's, ever, they are so well designed.

 

[EyesofThunder]

I am a big fan of engine oil coolers that run thru the radiator coolant. The coolant actually heats the oil when the engine is cold, but also maintains a much more stable oil temp overall.

My 94 Fleetwood LT1 has one, and my 99 Suburban 454 has one. I was pretty against my 454 running 5W30 (factory spec'd) for being capable of towing 10,000 lbs. But now what I am much more edumacated, 5W30 should be fine. I have run it on 15W40 or 5W40 Rotella T since I have had it. But I am pondering going to 5W20 in it for winter, as it isn't driven much anymore, and if so, most would be short trips in the cool weather, rarely ever getting the oil up to fully hot temps. The engine oil cooler helping as much as it could.

My 2000 Buick Park Ave Ultra has no oil cooler, but I wish it did, mainly to help warm the oil up faster. It gets the bulk of the short trip driving around town, 5-10 mile trips and then a cooldown. And with northern temps being fairly cold, it just barely gets up to normal coolant temps, so the oil is probably rarely getting up to temp. I winter often see moisture forming in the oil fill cap. Which I feel is due to the oil temps never getting fully warm. (yes, PCV is good, no evidence of coolant in the oil)

I have a Lexus GS400 now, not sure if it has an engine oil cooler, I haven't honestly looked that close yet....But it has 5W20 now and honestly the mpg bump (averaging so far around 2.5-3 mpg over the last 2000 miles) is a nice help.

 

[SteveSRT8]

^^^Sorry man, but a casual comment alleging a 2.5-3 mpg difference just from dropping down to 20W oil?

Baloney.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
^^^Sorry man, but a casual comment alleging a 2.5-3 mpg difference just from dropping down to 20W oil?

Baloney.


Possible with very short trips, I guess.

He's got a good point about oil coolers/heat exchangers.

 

[CIRHS]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
^^^Sorry man, but a casual comment alleging a 2.5-3 mpg difference just from dropping down to 20W oil?

Baloney.


+1

 

[EyesofThunder]

I can't argue with the calculator. This engine is VERY tight from the factory anyway (Lexus 1UZ-FE), tighter than the similar engine family 8 years later. So this one I can see some improvement. I personally won't be 100% convinced for around 10k miles, which happens fast enough. Either way I get 425 miles to a tank now much more commonly than I did before, if I got to 400 before I was ecstatic. I'll dig up my mileage book and post some numbers of what it is showing right now.

Since I got the car I have run Mobil 1 0W30 AFE, then Quaker State 5W30 syn, and then the last oil change I went with plain jane Mobil Super 5W20. Figured I would experiment on it and see. I am at 170k miles now. I got the car with 138k and change oil right around 10k. It was changed just before I got the car.

I have done a TON of statistical analysis of mpg. I commute 40 miles each way a day, before that 75 miles each way and before that 60 miles each way. So I have taken the opportunity to learn what affects mpg and what doesn't. In my experience, oil weight hasn't had much effect, from 0W30 to 15W40, even in dead of Wisconsin winter. But my drive is unique, start up cold and within 3 miles I am at 55 mph, and 6 miles, 75 mph. With the car I had then (the 94 Fleetwood) it had the oil cooler, so oil was heated by coolant, but it was limited to the thermostat's 180F (stock in the LT1) temps. So it NEVER had a reason to get hot. I did air filters, speeds, electric fan vs mech fan (with a properly operating clutch), 10% ethanol fuel vs 0%, acetone in the gas vs not, oil weight (0W30, 5W30, 10W30, 15W40, 5W40, even straight 30) and other things. Few had effect on mpg like ambient temp and driving style. Engine oil was one that had effects in the less than 0.2 mpg range.

I used Minitab 15 to do my mpg analysis. I looked at it much much closer than anyone else. So seeing a bump in mpg like this is puzzling, it ~shouldn't~ in my experience. I drive sane most of the time, driving gentle sees 27 mpg. Driving normal (65 mph, passing people as need on back roads), 75% higher speeds, some stop and go. With 5W30 and 0W30 I never got to 27 in this type of driving, never ever. I have seen 27.1 to 27.4 in this driving. Same drive with the 0W30 and 5W30 I typically got 22 to 24, and 24 was a rarity. Driving more agressively on the 5W20 I am in the 25.3 range.

I'll go punch in the numbers in Excel and see what I find out for trends. We had a hot summer this year, AC on as usual, yes, AC wasn't needed as much when I put in the 5W20, but it has NEVER got this sort of mpg with AC off no matter what I did.

Oh, spark plugs are std NGK's, and have 30k miles on them. I aligned it this summer (I do my own) and that could be a contributing factor, but I had 5-7k miles on it with the alignment done, again, nothing stood out after the alignment improving mpg.

Oh, air filter also has 30k on it, I blow it out now and then, but it isn't anything special (Wix std replacement)

First oil change was 0W30 AFE with a Toyota std filter
Second oil change was 5W30 with a 51348 Wix filter
3rd oil change was the 5W20 with a Wix 51516. I won't use the 51516 again, it is larger yes, but it is a 21 micron filter and the 51348 is a 15.

I have seen 30.x mpg highway with the 5W30 oil once, and high 29's too.

 

[derek244]

Man. I have got to get that 0w20 Mobil 1 out of my 2012 Honda Fit. You guys are scaring me. I fear my engines bearings are being ground up like coffee beans. It appears there is no definitive answer to the 20 vs 30 debate.

 

[Shannow]

And that'[s why strawman arguments like "bearings are being ground up like coffee beans" always end up in the "debate",when no thick advocate has ever asserted that.

 

[derek244]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
And that'[s why strawman arguments like "bearings are being ground up like coffee beans" always end up in the "debate",when no thick advocate has ever asserted that.


I had to look up "strawman" in the dictionary.

 

[ARB1977]

Just run what's speced. My Tacoma is speced for 30W but was now backed speced to 20W. I stick to 30W. To gain 1 more mpg isn't worth it to me.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
And finally there are new engine features that EXPECT thin oil (or at least oil that stays in a narrower viscosity range)

Quote:
The engines are made to run with a fairly wide range of oil viscosity because that's going to happen at start-up, but its not optimal

So you are saying that engines built for the global market are running less than optimal lubrication because they are not using a viscosity that is only available in a few countries?
With over 197 countries globally and 20w oil being common in only 3 or 4 of them the other 193 countries that use the engines are not using optimal lubrication?

I know only what spec in the NA market and Japan is correct, the rest of the world is wrong.
Quote:
Things like small-orifice timing chain sprayers, piston sprayers, and various variable-valve-timing mechanisms.

Millions of engines with every feature you describe run on oils with an HTHS of 3.5 or more every day and go hundreds of thousand of miles on it.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: Trav

With over 197 countries globally and 20w oil being common in only 3 or 4 of them the other 193 countries that use the engines are not using optimal lubrication?



That statement alone right there speaks volumes yet we have the 20 wt wars on here daily.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: Trav

With over 197 countries globally and 20w oil being common in only 3 or 4 of them the other 193 countries that use the engines are not using optimal lubrication?



That statement alone right there speaks volumes yet we have the 20 wt wars on here daily.


Yes that is an eye opener. The engines are certainly not built any different, but then again they aren't answering to CAFE either like here in the USA.

 

[CIRHS]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Yes that is an eye opener. The engines are certainly not built any different, but then again they aren't answering to CAFE either like here in the USA.


Thats exactly right. Like I said my L77 V8 is specs for a xw-30 oil but I run xw-60 in it along with others on LS1 forums here in aus.

A few members on the LS1 forum did filtergrams on xw30 and then on xw60 and found that xw60 oil had quite lot less particles in it.

Anyways each to their own. Its your car and you can run in on what ever the **** you wanna.

 

[Dave Sherman]

I ran 5W-20 in the Honda for the first 50,000 miles, and kept a log of mileage vs. fuel burned. Since then I've been using 5W-30, and I can't tell any noticeable difference in gas mileage. I can usually get 32-33 MPG on the highway, and the engine is quieter with 5W-30.

 

[Trav]

I did a few Honda 3.5 IVTEC sludge engines and had the owners run them on Mobil 1 0w40.
I figured if these engines are spec for oil with an HTHS of 3.5+ in the global market the HTHS of 3.8 in Mobil 1 should be close enough.

The results are positive. All i hear is how nice they run, smooth and silent with no complaints at all of lower mileage.
The eco mode works properly as does the cam phasers.
2 of them are now running PU 5w30 with the same result.

 

[EyesofThunder]

I am looking for the chart that supposedly Lexus and Toyota released that back spec'd 0W20 and 5W20. I can't find it all of a sudden. Thanks!