I've never even had a motorcycle that got that much fuel economy. I can't imagine a car that gets it.
Engine tech. for meeting the 54.5mpg CAFE reqs
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Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Somehow you fail to notice that global oil shortage and US addiction on imported oil is a huge nation security issue and will (or did already) bankrupt the whole nation. Being able to work on ones cars is a lame complaint when you see a bigger picture.
Most of our imported oil comes from Canada.
Somehow you fail to notice that global oil shortage and US addiction on imported oil is a huge nation security issue and will (or did already) bankrupt the whole nation. Being able to work on ones cars is a lame complaint when you see a bigger picture.
Most of our imported oil comes from Canada.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Just look at the increased cost and complexity that consumers will have to deal with, all to satisfy a completely arbitrary mandate.
People complain that they can't work on their cars now, imagine what it will be like in the future!
Somehow you fail to notice that global oil shortage and US addiction on imported oil is a huge nation security issue and will (or did already) bankrupt the whole nation. Being able to work on ones cars is a lame complaint when you see a bigger picture.
What global oil shortage? There is oil all over the place and proven reserves continue to increase, even as use increases.
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Proven-Oil-Reserves-Will-Continue-To-Increase-With-Time.html
And yes, the largest source of foreign oil is Canada:
http://www.eia.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html
The "bigger picture" is that getting off of foreign oil is nothing but a panacea.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Just look at the increased cost and complexity that consumers will have to deal with, all to satisfy a completely arbitrary mandate.
People complain that they can't work on their cars now, imagine what it will be like in the future!
Somehow you fail to notice that global oil shortage and US addiction on imported oil is a huge nation security issue and will (or did already) bankrupt the whole nation. Being able to work on ones cars is a lame complaint when you see a bigger picture.
What global oil shortage? There is oil all over the place and proven reserves continue to increase, even as use increases.
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Proven-Oil-Reserves-Will-Continue-To-Increase-With-Time.html
And yes, the largest source of foreign oil is Canada:
http://www.eia.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html
The "bigger picture" is that getting off of foreign oil is nothing but a panacea.
Kestas
Staff member
If there truly is a shortage of petroleum fuel in the world, I say let's hurry up and consume it and use it all up. This should get rid of the present geopolitical angst we have over oil, and it'll put everyone in the world on a level playing field. Petroleum only been a significant factor in our lives for the past 100 years, which is a very short time for mankind.
A CAFE of 54.5 mpg will only prolong the agony.
A CAFE of 54.5 mpg will only prolong the agony.
Originally Posted By: Jeff_in_VABch
I've never even had a motorcycle that got that much fuel economy. I can't imagine a car that gets it.
Haha, that's a good one! Same here.
Note there is no shortage of oil. And there won't be for a long time. As prices rise the technology will advance to get more production out of existing fields and eventually we will start exploiting our reserves here in the US.
Add to that that usage will decline due to conservation efforts and alternative fuels like natural gas. Electrics may also contribute.
Some of us are drinking media proffered kool aid...
I've never even had a motorcycle that got that much fuel economy. I can't imagine a car that gets it.
Haha, that's a good one! Same here.
Note there is no shortage of oil. And there won't be for a long time. As prices rise the technology will advance to get more production out of existing fields and eventually we will start exploiting our reserves here in the US.
Add to that that usage will decline due to conservation efforts and alternative fuels like natural gas. Electrics may also contribute.
Some of us are drinking media proffered kool aid...
Originally Posted By: Tempest
What global oil shortage? There is oil all over the place and proven reserves continue to increase, even as use increases.
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Proven-Oil-Reserves-Will-Continue-To-Increase-With-Time.html
Is that your only source of info? That blog is from 2010 and uses 2008 data. Newer data from 2012, show reserves decreasing and the estimation highly suspect as OPEC is lying about reserves (they obviously don't want USA develop alternative sources, as it would hurt the insane profits for Arabs).
This is good food for thought:
Quote:
The sudden revisions in OPEC reserves, totaling nearly 300 bn barrels, have been much debated.[21] Some of it is defended partly by the shift in ownership of reserves away from international oil companies, some of whom were obliged to report reserves under conservative US Securities and Exchange Commission rules.[19][22] The most prominent explanation of the revisions is prompted by a change in OPEC rules which set production quotas (partly) on reserves. In any event, the revisions in official data had little to do with the actual discovery of new reserves.[19]
Total reserves in many OPEC countries hardly changed in the 1990s.[19] Official reserves in Kuwait, for example, were unchanged at 96.5 Gbbl (15.34×109 m3) (including its share of the Neutral Zone) from 1991 to 2002, even though the country produced more than 8 Gbbl (1.3×109 m3) and did not make any important new discoveries during that period.[19] The case of Saudi Arabia is also striking, with proven reserves estimated at between 260 and 264 billion barrels (4.20×1010 m3) in the past 18 years, a variation of less than 2%,[19] while extracting approximately 60 billion barrels (9.5×109 m3) during this period.
Sadad al-Huseini, former head of exploration and production at Saudi Aramco, estimates 300 Gbbl (48×109 m3) of the world's 1,200 Gbbl (190×109 m3) of proven reserves should be recategorized as speculative resources, though he did not specify which countries had inflated their reserves.[23] Dr. Ali Samsam Bakhtiari, a former senior expert of the National Iranian Oil Company, has estimated that Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates have overstated reserves by a combined 320–390bn barrels and has said, "As for Iran, the usually accepted official 132 billion barrels (2.10×1010 m3) is almost one hundred billion over any realistic assay."[24] Petroleum Intelligence Weekly reported that official confidential Kuwaiti documents estimate reserves of Kuwait were only 48 billion barrels (7.6×109 m3), of which half were proven and half were possible. The combined value of proven and possible is half of the official public estimate of proven reserves.[20]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves
What global oil shortage? There is oil all over the place and proven reserves continue to increase, even as use increases.
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Proven-Oil-Reserves-Will-Continue-To-Increase-With-Time.html
Is that your only source of info? That blog is from 2010 and uses 2008 data. Newer data from 2012, show reserves decreasing and the estimation highly suspect as OPEC is lying about reserves (they obviously don't want USA develop alternative sources, as it would hurt the insane profits for Arabs).
This is good food for thought:
Quote:
The sudden revisions in OPEC reserves, totaling nearly 300 bn barrels, have been much debated.[21] Some of it is defended partly by the shift in ownership of reserves away from international oil companies, some of whom were obliged to report reserves under conservative US Securities and Exchange Commission rules.[19][22] The most prominent explanation of the revisions is prompted by a change in OPEC rules which set production quotas (partly) on reserves. In any event, the revisions in official data had little to do with the actual discovery of new reserves.[19]
Total reserves in many OPEC countries hardly changed in the 1990s.[19] Official reserves in Kuwait, for example, were unchanged at 96.5 Gbbl (15.34×109 m3) (including its share of the Neutral Zone) from 1991 to 2002, even though the country produced more than 8 Gbbl (1.3×109 m3) and did not make any important new discoveries during that period.[19] The case of Saudi Arabia is also striking, with proven reserves estimated at between 260 and 264 billion barrels (4.20×1010 m3) in the past 18 years, a variation of less than 2%,[19] while extracting approximately 60 billion barrels (9.5×109 m3) during this period.
Sadad al-Huseini, former head of exploration and production at Saudi Aramco, estimates 300 Gbbl (48×109 m3) of the world's 1,200 Gbbl (190×109 m3) of proven reserves should be recategorized as speculative resources, though he did not specify which countries had inflated their reserves.[23] Dr. Ali Samsam Bakhtiari, a former senior expert of the National Iranian Oil Company, has estimated that Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates have overstated reserves by a combined 320–390bn barrels and has said, "As for Iran, the usually accepted official 132 billion barrels (2.10×1010 m3) is almost one hundred billion over any realistic assay."[24] Petroleum Intelligence Weekly reported that official confidential Kuwaiti documents estimate reserves of Kuwait were only 48 billion barrels (7.6×109 m3), of which half were proven and half were possible. The combined value of proven and possible is half of the official public estimate of proven reserves.[20]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves
Originally Posted By: Tempest
And yes, the largest source of foreign oil is Canada:
http://www.eia.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html
The "bigger picture" is that getting off of foreign oil is nothing but a panacea.
That Canada source doesn't change the fact that USA has huge trade deficit due to oil import and it's effectively transferring its wealth to oil exporting nations.
Not surprising the real wages in USA are dropping very fast in the last several years or so when the oil prices have topped.
OPEC produces enough oil that if they go on strike (like in 70's), the world's economy goes belly up, Canadian oil notwithstanding.
And yes, the largest source of foreign oil is Canada:
http://www.eia.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html
The "bigger picture" is that getting off of foreign oil is nothing but a panacea.
That Canada source doesn't change the fact that USA has huge trade deficit due to oil import and it's effectively transferring its wealth to oil exporting nations.
Not surprising the real wages in USA are dropping very fast in the last several years or so when the oil prices have topped.
OPEC produces enough oil that if they go on strike (like in 70's), the world's economy goes belly up, Canadian oil notwithstanding.
Originally Posted By: Jeff_in_VABch
I've never even had a motorcycle that got that much fuel economy. I can't imagine a car that gets it.
Your imagination is very limited as I drive a car on a daily basis that exceeds those numbers.
I've never even had a motorcycle that got that much fuel economy. I can't imagine a car that gets it.
Your imagination is very limited as I drive a car on a daily basis that exceeds those numbers.
Originally Posted By: Kestas
If there truly is a shortage of petroleum fuel in the world, I say let's hurry up and consume it and use it all up. This should get rid of the present geopolitical angst we have over oil, and it'll put everyone in the world on a level playing field. Petroleum only been a significant factor in our lives for the past 100 years, which is a very short time for mankind.
A CAFE of 54.5 mpg will only prolong the agony.
I don't think you know what you are talking about. You forget that your food is grown and brought to your table thanks to oil. The world would be very different without oil and would not be able to sustain all 7 billion people. And this is why one should expect global wars when we get closer to that point.
BTW, we had less than 2 billion people 100 years ago.
If there truly is a shortage of petroleum fuel in the world, I say let's hurry up and consume it and use it all up. This should get rid of the present geopolitical angst we have over oil, and it'll put everyone in the world on a level playing field. Petroleum only been a significant factor in our lives for the past 100 years, which is a very short time for mankind.
A CAFE of 54.5 mpg will only prolong the agony.
I don't think you know what you are talking about. You forget that your food is grown and brought to your table thanks to oil. The world would be very different without oil and would not be able to sustain all 7 billion people. And this is why one should expect global wars when we get closer to that point.
BTW, we had less than 2 billion people 100 years ago.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Note there is no shortage of oil. And there won't be for a long time. As prices rise the technology will advance to get more production out of existing fields and eventually we will start exploiting our reserves here in the US.
I guess you are not familiar with the energy returned on energy invested (EREI) concept. You could have lots of reserves, but if it takes more energy to get the oil, that reserve is all useless. That EREI ratio is currently plummeting.
Quote:
when oil was originally discovered, it took on average one barrel of oil to find, extract, and process about 100 barrels of oil. That ratio has declined steadily over the last century to about three barrels gained for one barrel used up in the U.S. (and about ten for one in Saudi Arabia).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested
As for the USA, the known reserves are only good for paltry 10 years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves#Estimated_reserves_by_country
Some of us are listing too much to political propaganda and ignoring science.
Note there is no shortage of oil. And there won't be for a long time. As prices rise the technology will advance to get more production out of existing fields and eventually we will start exploiting our reserves here in the US.
I guess you are not familiar with the energy returned on energy invested (EREI) concept. You could have lots of reserves, but if it takes more energy to get the oil, that reserve is all useless. That EREI ratio is currently plummeting.
Quote:
when oil was originally discovered, it took on average one barrel of oil to find, extract, and process about 100 barrels of oil. That ratio has declined steadily over the last century to about three barrels gained for one barrel used up in the U.S. (and about ten for one in Saudi Arabia).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested
As for the USA, the known reserves are only good for paltry 10 years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves#Estimated_reserves_by_country
Some of us are listing too much to political propaganda and ignoring science.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
We have the technology to meet 54.5 mpg CAFE right now. It's a matter of styling it so folks will buy it.
LOL. Have a third party create something that people don't want and then have an interested party have to come up with a way to sell it to them.
What could possibly go wrong?
My daily driver gets 44.5 mpg combined CAFE already. Stop/start would likely boost that to about 50 mpg CAFE, and some more aerodynamic tweaking would likely get it to 55 mpg CAFE. Strangely enough, it's averaged 44 mpg in real life without using a light foot every drive.
Point being, we're almost there. And, there's always money to be made in being efficient.
Quote:
We have the technology to meet 54.5 mpg CAFE right now. It's a matter of styling it so folks will buy it.
LOL. Have a third party create something that people don't want and then have an interested party have to come up with a way to sell it to them.
What could possibly go wrong?
My daily driver gets 44.5 mpg combined CAFE already. Stop/start would likely boost that to about 50 mpg CAFE, and some more aerodynamic tweaking would likely get it to 55 mpg CAFE. Strangely enough, it's averaged 44 mpg in real life without using a light foot every drive.
Point being, we're almost there. And, there's always money to be made in being efficient.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Note there is no shortage of oil. And there won't be for a long time. As prices rise the technology will advance to get more production out of existing fields and eventually we will start exploiting our reserves here in the US.
Note, once upon a time, the Earth's atmosphere was CO2 and methane (and Nitrogen), so theoretically, there's enough carbon stored around the world to get us back there.
Although once atmospheric oxygen gets to about 12% it will stop.
Note there is no shortage of oil. And there won't be for a long time. As prices rise the technology will advance to get more production out of existing fields and eventually we will start exploiting our reserves here in the US.
Note, once upon a time, the Earth's atmosphere was CO2 and methane (and Nitrogen), so theoretically, there's enough carbon stored around the world to get us back there.
Although once atmospheric oxygen gets to about 12% it will stop.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Some of us are listing too much to political propaganda and ignoring science.
Absolutely agreed. Perhaps you should examine that statement more closely. Your attitude is typical elitist [censored] that spews forth from the "holier than thou" hybrid/economy car owners.
And a great deal of the "science" you quote is highly speculative and debatable, as are your economic views re: ROI. Technology will be introduced and it will be developed and we will go on. It won't be the first time so-called 'science' has promised us a different future.
Suffice it to say that this would not be the first time science has been manipulated to reflect the political views as desired by the media, and it is hardly impartial.
Global Warming, anyone?
Some of us are listing too much to political propaganda and ignoring science.
Absolutely agreed. Perhaps you should examine that statement more closely. Your attitude is typical elitist [censored] that spews forth from the "holier than thou" hybrid/economy car owners.
And a great deal of the "science" you quote is highly speculative and debatable, as are your economic views re: ROI. Technology will be introduced and it will be developed and we will go on. It won't be the first time so-called 'science' has promised us a different future.
Suffice it to say that this would not be the first time science has been manipulated to reflect the political views as desired by the media, and it is hardly impartial.
Global Warming, anyone?
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Your attitude is typical elitist [censored] that spews forth from the "holier than thou" hybrid/economy car owners.
Vice versa, your attitude is typical elitist [censored] that spews forth from the "holier than thou" anti-hybrid/economy car owners and pro-oil business. I also see that any arguments are totally wasted on you as you will always say "science is wrong" and there is no climate change.
As Schopenhauer said about truth:
Quote:
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer
German philosopher (1788 - 1860)
Over and out.
Your attitude is typical elitist [censored] that spews forth from the "holier than thou" hybrid/economy car owners.
Vice versa, your attitude is typical elitist [censored] that spews forth from the "holier than thou" anti-hybrid/economy car owners and pro-oil business. I also see that any arguments are totally wasted on you as you will always say "science is wrong" and there is no climate change.
As Schopenhauer said about truth:
Quote:
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer
German philosopher (1788 - 1860)
Over and out.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Tempest
The "bigger picture" is that getting off of foreign oil is nothing but a panacea.
Are you sure that's the word that you wanted to use ?
i.e. getting off foreign oil (actually) cures everything ?
No, getting off foreign oil isn't going to happen any time soon and those that think it will are living in la la land.
And I don't think it all that big a deal that we import oil from other countries. Trade lowers the chances for war.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
The "bigger picture" is that getting off of foreign oil is nothing but a panacea.
Are you sure that's the word that you wanted to use ?
i.e. getting off foreign oil (actually) cures everything ?
No, getting off foreign oil isn't going to happen any time soon and those that think it will are living in la la land.
And I don't think it all that big a deal that we import oil from other countries. Trade lowers the chances for war.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
That Canada source doesn't change the fact that USA has huge trade deficit due to oil import and it's effectively transferring its wealth to oil exporting nations.
LOL. "Trade deficit" is not a problem. It is an indicator of the ability of the USA to buy things from other people. We are trading fiat digits for real products (energy). You have it exactly backwards.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Not surprising the real wages in USA are dropping very fast in the last several years or so when the oil prices have topped.
The "real wages" does not include total compensation and is a flawed way of measuring anything.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...881#Post2768881
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
OPEC produces enough oil that if they go on strike (like in 70's), the world's economy goes belly up, Canadian oil notwithstanding.
What makes you think they can afford to do that? It's how they prevent riots in their streets.
That Canada source doesn't change the fact that USA has huge trade deficit due to oil import and it's effectively transferring its wealth to oil exporting nations.
LOL. "Trade deficit" is not a problem. It is an indicator of the ability of the USA to buy things from other people. We are trading fiat digits for real products (energy). You have it exactly backwards.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Not surprising the real wages in USA are dropping very fast in the last several years or so when the oil prices have topped.
The "real wages" does not include total compensation and is a flawed way of measuring anything.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...881#Post2768881
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
OPEC produces enough oil that if they go on strike (like in 70's), the world's economy goes belly up, Canadian oil notwithstanding.
What makes you think they can afford to do that? It's how they prevent riots in their streets.
Originally Posted By: Kestas
If there truly is a shortage of petroleum fuel in the world, I say let's hurry up and consume it and use it all up. This should get rid of the present geopolitical angst we have over oil, and it'll put everyone in the world on a level playing field. Petroleum only been a significant factor in our lives for the past 100 years, which is a very short time for mankind.
A CAFE of 54.5 mpg will only prolong the agony.
The angst will simply transfer to something else. Battery materials, copper, solar panel elementals....whatever the "next big thing" in energy will be, will cause global tensions.
Oil is just the current incarnation.
If there truly is a shortage of petroleum fuel in the world, I say let's hurry up and consume it and use it all up. This should get rid of the present geopolitical angst we have over oil, and it'll put everyone in the world on a level playing field. Petroleum only been a significant factor in our lives for the past 100 years, which is a very short time for mankind.
A CAFE of 54.5 mpg will only prolong the agony.
The angst will simply transfer to something else. Battery materials, copper, solar panel elementals....whatever the "next big thing" in energy will be, will cause global tensions.
Oil is just the current incarnation.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves
From your link:
Quote:
Experience shows that initial estimates of the size of newly discovered oil fields are usually too low. As years pass, successive estimates of the ultimate recovery of fields tend to increase. The term reserve growth refers to the typical increases in estimated ultimate recovery that occur as oil fields are developed and produced.[3]
I am still looking for this "global oil shortage". BP reporting oil reserves up:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/13/us-bp-world-reserves-idUSBRE85C0VB20120613
Quote:
Despite the increase in opportunities for Western oil companies to invest in new projects, most oil reserves remain in the hands of state-backed oil companies whose investments follow political mood swings rather than economic signals.
Hence, fields may remain undeveloped while demand goes unsatisfied.
The 16 largest oil companies on the planet are state owned:
http://www.petrostrategies.org/Links/Worlds_Largest_Oil_and_Gas_Companies_Sites.htm
Any "shortage" is due to governments restricting supply so as to increase prices and therefore line their own pockets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves
From your link:
Quote:
Experience shows that initial estimates of the size of newly discovered oil fields are usually too low. As years pass, successive estimates of the ultimate recovery of fields tend to increase. The term reserve growth refers to the typical increases in estimated ultimate recovery that occur as oil fields are developed and produced.[3]
I am still looking for this "global oil shortage". BP reporting oil reserves up:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/13/us-bp-world-reserves-idUSBRE85C0VB20120613
Quote:
Despite the increase in opportunities for Western oil companies to invest in new projects, most oil reserves remain in the hands of state-backed oil companies whose investments follow political mood swings rather than economic signals.
Hence, fields may remain undeveloped while demand goes unsatisfied.
The 16 largest oil companies on the planet are state owned:
http://www.petrostrategies.org/Links/Worlds_Largest_Oil_and_Gas_Companies_Sites.htm
Any "shortage" is due to governments restricting supply so as to increase prices and therefore line their own pockets.
Originally Posted By: Jeff_in_VABch
Somehow driving those econoboxes lowers IQ.
Now what do you drive that makes you that much smarter?
Somehow driving those econoboxes lowers IQ.
Now what do you drive that makes you that much smarter?
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