Engine Damage caused from 0W20/5W20?

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: AEHaas
I have been running 20 grade oils in 600 BHP twin turbo cars for almost a decade, Bentleys, Maybachs and in non turbo cars, Lamborghini and an Enzo. Wear appears to be less than normal.
aehaas


Ford/Havoline in the Oz V-8 supercars would invite journalists to pick up a couple of 5L Havoline 20W-50 dino jugs from any service station on the way to the track, bring them into the pit, and fill up dry sump for the day's racing.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
It doesn't matter, I was responding to a specific question by OP:

Quote:
Reason I ask, with all the oil change shops changing oil, and misinformed customers, there are an awful lot of people asking about it because a shop put the wrong grade oil in (xW20 instead of xW30).

But I haven't found anyone who has had a shop do it and it actually hurt an engine. Plenty of stories of places like Walmart/Jiffy Lube, etc who did it to a customer for a long time and they never knew until they looked closely at the records and found out much later.


I wasn't calling you out Jack, I was just making a point about Toyota having a reason for spec'ing a 30 grade oil for that engine. I'm sure with CAFE looming they'd have loved to spec a 20 grade oil for it.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: dave123
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
I have been running 20 grade oils in 600 BHP twin turbo cars for almost a decade, Bentleys, Maybachs and in non turbo cars, Lamborghini and an Enzo. Wear appears to be less than normal. All spec'ed 40 grade oils, the Enzo a 60 grade oil. Most recently the Enzo is running a 0W-30 grade oil that shows essentially no wear at all.

This might help as to why:
The first one is unedited:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item#faq_haas_articles
Original (but edited by others) version:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/

aehaas


Is this WOT in all gears or Grandpa driving around town.


Lack of response to this question is telling.

 

[AEHaas]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: dave123
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
I have been running 20 grade oils in 600 BHP twin turbo cars for almost a decade, Bentleys, Maybachs and in non turbo cars, Lamborghini and an Enzo. Wear appears to be less than normal. All spec'ed 40 grade oils, the Enzo a 60 grade oil. Most recently the Enzo is running a 0W-30 grade oil that shows essentially no wear at all.

This might help as to why:
The first one is unedited:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item#faq_haas_articles
Original (but edited by others) version:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/

aehaas


Is this WOT in all gears or Grandpa driving around town.


Lack of response to this question is telling.


When I traded in my Maybach on a Ghost the 57s AMG had around 18,000 miles. Oh and "Grandpa" was on his 4th set of tires.

aehaas

 

[Volvohead]

One meaningful controlled field study I'm aware of where a 20 wt oil was used in engines originally specifying a heavier weight was this one in 2008, involving Infineum, Petronas
Lubricants International, and Iveco, and published in LNG-E/ME/A, available in public domain: http://www.lngpublishing.com/LNGmagEMEA/LNG_july2008.pdf

In that field study, running a 0w-20 compared to a 15w-40 in European heavy-duty diesel engines:

The engine tests did reveal slightly increased wear on
some components in the valvetrain – exhaust rocker arm
bearings, injector rocker arm bearings, camshaft bearings
in the cylinder head – but still well within the normal
acceptable limits.

LNG-No.8, July/Aug. 2008, Pg. 20.

Take it for what it's worth. It is also noteworthy that the principal objective of the study and the use of such oils was to increase fleet fuel efficiency. Performance and wear considerations were secondary in this study. The general thesis of the study was that the use of such oils appeared practical, in the engines involved, at the expense of slightly increased wear rates.

Other than a manufacturer itself specifying or back-specifying a thinner nominal viscosity in some instances (presumably following competent engineering and field studies), and the above industry 2008 study, the only other information I'm aware of on the practice of using viscosities lighter than manufacturer recommended are the anecdotal observations of individuals willing to experiment on their own vehicles.

 

[pev223]

It would be difficult to prove engines damage due to using a lighter weight oil. As far as switching wrong oil in motors during oil changes, I believe you will find the tendency is to put 5w-30 in cars that call for 20wt, not the other way around. I own 2 auto repair shops and know for a fact this is so, some of the dealers are also guilty of this. I know because we buy our bulk oil from the same guys.
As far as using a lighter oil in a very old engine, for example 1970's era, let me just say the bearing clearances today on a typical V8 engine is about 50% tighter now than what it was then. Same thing applies to the piston to wall clearance. Engines are built far tighter today than before.
People keep saying their used oil results are showing less than normal wear. My response is that they really don't know. They don't know because used oil analysis is not designed for that purpose and is not a reliable indicator of wear metals. It only sees a very particular size of metal, too small or too large it goes un-noticed. No enginneer ever ever determined wear by looking at a used oil analysis. the oil tests use to rate sm/sn oil is a perfect example. Engines must be torn down and measured for true results.
Many people often say use what the manufacturer reccpomends the engineers know best. Then I see go thinner than reccomended, it is fine. You can't have it both ways folks!
Either the engineers know more than us, or they don't.
With all due respect to Dr. Aehaas 18,000 is not a sign 20 wt is fine. Call me when you have 218,000 still using 20wt....then I will be impressed. Just MHO

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: AEHaas

When I traded in my Maybach on a Ghost the 57s AMG had around 18,000 miles. Oh and "Grandpa" was on his 4th set of tires.

aehaas


You should park it where you don't get your tires stolen too often. Either that or change the tire brand or use the warranty because you are buying defective tires.

 

[Eddie]

I am a skeptic on the very long term wear using a0w20 wt oil. I read that police cars and selected individuals have recorded some long term good results but, until we get some significant statistics from many daily drivers in a large variety of vehicles, I will remain cautious. I'm refering to vehicles running over 150,000+ miles without any oil related issues. Ed

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: pev223

Many people often say use what the manufacturer reccpomends the engineers know best. Then I see go thinner than reccomended, it is fine. You can't have it both ways folks!
Either the engineers know more than us, or they don't.
With all due respect to Dr. Aehaas 18,000 is not a sign 20 wt is fine. Call me when you have 218,000 still using 20wt....then I will be impressed. Just MHO

First Ali Haas has never used a true 20wt oil in his exotic toys. The RLI 0W-20 he runs in his wife's Lambo' has a HTHSV >2.9cP and possbily as high as 3.3cP which really is a mid-grade 30wt oil.
Furthermore Ali is not driving blind. He has oil pressure and oil temperature gauges in his cars so he knows exactly what the actual operational viscosity is at any given moment the engines are running.

One can certainly run an oil lighter than the oil grade a manufacturer recommends without issue or increased risk if one still maintains the minimum recommended oil pressure. Whether you can depends entirely on how hot you get the oil and that may depend very much on how the vehicle is used.

Relying of fleet statistics to determine whether a 20wt (HTHSV 2.6cP) oil produces less wear than a 30wt (HTHSV 3.0-3.1cP) in the long run is meaningless and has no bearing on how an individual maintains and operates his own vehicle in the long term.
If a vehicle is spec'd for a 20wt oil there is a very large viscosity safety margin to deal with possible high oil temp's.
In fact with many modern vehicles there are fail safe systems in place to deal with higher than save oil temp's whereby in extreme
cases the engine will go into limp mode until the oil temp's have come down to a safer level.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Relying of fleet statistics to determine whether a 20wt (HTHSV 2.6cP) oil produces less wear than a 30wt (HTHSV 3.0-3.1cP) in the long run is meaningless and has no bearing on how an individual maintains and operates his own vehicle in the long term.


Then what would be meaningful? Fleet statistics from various industries Eg: Rental vehicles, Police, Taxi, Ambulances, etc., or from members on BITOG who make the claims that thinner oil than recommended is fine? Please note most of these claims can't be backed up with engine tear down, only hearsay, or a $25 UOA report where we can't even be sure the results are accurate because of the many mistakes they've made over the years. JMO

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Eddie
I am a skeptic on the very long term wear using a0w20 wt oil. I read that police cars and selected individuals have recorded some long term good results but, until we get some significant statistics from many daily drivers in a large variety of vehicles, I will remain cautious. I'm refering to vehicles running over 150,000+ miles without any oil related issues. Ed


Skeptical of an oil weight that's been in service well over a decade now? You can hate "thin oils" all you want, but please stop pretending there is a rational basis for doing so. Why don't you show that 0W-20 in a wear-producing engine-destroyer?

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Relying of fleet statistics to determine whether a 20wt (HTHSV 2.6cP) oil produces less wear than a 30wt (HTHSV 3.0-3.1cP) in the long run is meaningless and has no bearing on how an individual maintains and operates his own vehicle in the long term.


That seems a bald statement lacking any supporting logic or facts. Kindly elaborate how fleet statistics and industry studies determining whether a 20wt oil produces less wear than a 30wt are meaningless in the context of the OP's topic. I've certainly an open mind to supporting reasons for your statement.

20wt oils are nothing new, and they certainly have their place. Although I agree with you that an engine correctly designed around a 20wt oil should experience normal engine wear, the thrust of the OP's query was the use of such oils where a 30wt or heavier was originally specified.

The manufacturer's purpose in designing engines to run on such lighter oils is certainly debatable, but perhaps a separate topic from the OPs.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Relying of fleet statistics to determine whether a 20wt (HTHSV 2.6cP) oil produces less wear than a 30wt (HTHSV 3.0-3.1cP) in the long run is meaningless and has no bearing on how an individual maintains and operates his own vehicle in the long term.


That seems a bald statement lacking any supporting logic or facts. Kindly elaborate how fleet statistics and industry studies determining whether a 20wt oil produces less wear than a 30wt are meaningless in the context of the OP's topic. I've certainly an open mind to supporting reasons for your statement.

20wt oils are nothing new, and they certainly have their place. Although I agree with you that an engine correctly designed around a 20wt oil should experience normal engine wear, the thrust of the OP's query was the use of such oils where a 30wt or heavier was originally specified.

The manufacturer's purpose in designing engines to run on such lighter oils is certainly debatable, but perhaps a separate topic from the OPs.

You're not particularly "opened minded" because you've only quoted just part of what I've said.
The reason most newbies to motor oil have a problem with 20wt oil is that they do not fully understand the concept of operational viscosity and in turn just how much viscosity safety margin is present even when the oil is as hot as it will typically get. There is also the commonly held myth that 20wt oil being lighter will result in more engine wear even at normal operating temp's which of course is untrue which brings me back to my main point that most don't fully understand the concept of operational viscosity.

The move in recent years to the 5W-20 and 0W-20 grade for vehicles that were previously spec'd for the 5W-30 grade obviously has nothing to do with tighter engine bearings and other engine design features but rather an improvement in the shear stability of multigrade motor oil generally. The quality of a 5W-20 dino (0W-20 even more so) is significantly higher than the 5W-30 grade of the 1990's and earlier. Consiquently the OEMs that are now specifiying 20wt are reflecting that trend.
Or as a Ford engineer put it to me at the Toronto International Auto show last winter, "the 5W-20 grade may be lighter initially than the 5W-30 grade of years past but is possibly even heavier at the end of a oil change period. We have made no sacrifices to engine durability and in fact they are the highest they've ever been".

Fleet testing tells you more about the maintainance practices of the fleet in question than anything else. If they are sloppy about maintaining proper oil levels, OCI, the cooling system and vehicle maintenance generally then the higher viscosity safety margin of a 30wt oil can have some benefit.
What does the individual vehicle owner going learn from that? Nothing.

 

[TFB1]

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2699231&page=1

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Skeptical of an oil weight that's been in service well over a decade now? You can hate "thin oils" all you want, but please stop pretending there is a rational basis for doing so. Why don't you show that 0W-20 in a wear-producing engine-destroyer?


See, that's the strawman that I keep referring to.

"Hate"

and

"prove engine destroyer" seem to be term used only by the thin crowd to bully their way through a discussion...

It works just as well in politics...i.e. makes you look stupid.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: AEHaas
I have been running 20 grade oils in 600 BHP twin turbo cars for almost a decade, Bentleys, Maybachs and in non turbo cars, Lamborghini and an Enzo. Wear appears to be less than normal. All spec'ed 40 grade oils, the Enzo a 60 grade oil. Most recently the Enzo is running a 0W-30 grade oil that shows essentially no wear at all.

This might help as to why:
The first one is unedited:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item#faq_haas_articles
Original (but edited by others) version:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/

aehaas


Any track days?

I don't beleive you could track those cars with that light of oil in them, around town they don't really get to warm.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: AEHaas
I have been running 20 grade oils in 600 BHP twin turbo cars for almost a decade, Bentleys, Maybachs and in non turbo cars, Lamborghini and an Enzo. Wear appears to be less than normal. All spec'ed 40 grade oils, the Enzo a 60 grade oil. Most recently the Enzo is running a 0W-30 grade oil that shows essentially no wear at all.

This might help as to why:
The first one is unedited:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item#faq_haas_articles
Original (but edited by others) version:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/

aehaas



Originally Posted By: AEHaas
When I traded in my Maybach on a Ghost the 57s AMG had around 18,000 miles. Oh and "Grandpa" was on his 4th set of tires.

aehaas


So really, lifetime cost of ownership, and getting to 200,000 miles with 600hp and 0W-20 aren't a part of your equation...

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: pev223

Many people often say use what the manufacturer reccpomends the engineers know best. Then I see go thinner than reccomended, it is fine. You can't have it both ways folks!
Either the engineers know more than us, or they don't.
With all due respect to Dr. Aehaas 18,000 is not a sign 20 wt is fine. Call me when you have 218,000 still using 20wt....then I will be impressed. Just MHO

First Ali Haas has never used a true 20wt oil in his exotic toys. The RLI 0W-20 he runs in his wife's Lambo' has a HTHSV >2.9cP and possbily as high as 3.3cP which really is a mid-grade 30wt oil.
Furthermore Ali is not driving blind. He has oil pressure and oil temperature gauges in his cars so he knows exactly what the actual operational viscosity is at any given moment the engines are running.

One can certainly run an oil lighter than the oil grade a manufacturer recommends without issue or increased risk if one still maintains the minimum recommended oil pressure. Whether you can depends entirely on how hot you get the oil and that may depend very much on how the vehicle is used.

Relying of fleet statistics to determine whether a 20wt (HTHSV 2.6cP) oil produces less wear than a 30wt (HTHSV 3.0-3.1cP) in the long run is meaningless and has no bearing on how an individual maintains and operates his own vehicle in the long term.
If a vehicle is spec'd for a 20wt oil there is a very large viscosity safety margin to deal with possible high oil temp's.
In fact with many modern vehicles there are fail safe systems in place to deal with higher than save oil temp's whereby in extreme
cases the engine will go into limp mode until the oil temp's have come down to a safer level.


Now that your entire quote is before us . . .

You've not presented any facts or logic for your declaration that fleet statistics and industry studies are "meaningless".

Instead you chose to challenge my "open mindedness", and go off on a long-winded defense of the use of 20wt oils in certain vehicles. Manufacturer usage of 20wt oils in other engines does not support your specious statement attacking fleet and industry studies.

I am neither a "newbie", or have any particular problem with 20wt oils, per se.

But I do have a serious problem where competent statistical and engineering data is summarily belittled as part of a reasoned discussion.

It seems one of us is indeed not very open minded.

Your rush to diminish even lubrication industry data that disagrees in the slightest with your own personal theories, by declaring them meaningless, is intellectually disingenuous, to say the least.

 

[carlprop]

Originally Posted By: Chris142
there was a thread here a few years back about a ford v10 in a motorhome that blew up on 5w20. iirc the dealer was fighting them due to lack of maintenance reciepts so we don't really know why it blew up.


Thanks to Chris's good memory, I was able to dig up this thread. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=553013&page=1

I remember when it was first posted and it lasted for months. The topic was very controversial.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Furthermore Ali is not driving blind. He has oil pressure and oil temperature gauges in his cars so he knows exactly what the actual operational viscosity is at any given moment the engines are running.


This is exactly the thing that is missing from docs statements. He just drops a line that he runs thin oils in his high power exotic cars and walks away. Since most people on this board have no clue how he picked the oil, or how he knows the oil stays within safe viscosity, all sorts of speculation starts.

Another problem is that people don't search and do their own reading. Everybody just wants an instant answer.