“Scorched earth” test

[GMorg]

NateDN10 wrote: "if your oil is 400C, your car is probably on fire."

I disagree. Cast iron begins to glow red (visible at night) at about 425C, if I recall correctly. I have seen many heads glowing at night on farm equipment over the years. So, my conclusion is that the heads can reach 400C in many applications.

 

[Tempest]

400C = 752F That's about 3/4 of the way to altering the temper of steel (to the best of my understanding). Any metal part that is at that temperature for any given time is not going to do well.

As I also recall, oil oxidation doubles every 10C (F?) above 100C. 400C will cook that oil in no time. I'm not sure that even Polyol esters would hold up well at these temps.

 

[artificialist]

You can get the turbo of a racing engine to glow red, maybe this would be a good test for those engines?

However, an engine not built for racing probably doesn't get the turbo that hot.

 

[GMorg]

There are regions of an engine that reach 400C. Note that I am talking about regions, not the entire engine nor the entire fill of oil. Heads, turbos, rings, cylinder walls, and exhaust valve stems can routinely reach 400C. For the most part, oil does not stay in these regions for very long. This FACT is why we can see coking of oil in these regions.

My only point was that there are regions of the engine that reach these temps. I grant that oils don't withstand these temperatures very well. I think that this point is the motivation of the comparison.

I would like to have been surprised that some BITOGers could not find any utility in question that these guys attempted to address. I guess that Tempest's Rosovsky quote is fairly general advice.

 

[zoli]

Interesting test results - thx for sharing this! I love these type of tests: easy to repeat it and inexpensive!!! I'm a chemist and now thinking some simple tests like this with some oils are in my garage.
BTW, I don't think it's useful for an everyday car driver, even turbo charged cars. Difficult to understand this 1h/400°C heat 'treatment'; could be much interesting to see e.g. 5 hrs/250°C test: simulating a high speed and long highway run (with a young driver who doesn't need to look for lavatory every 2nd hr!)

 

[Primus]

OK, let me give some clarifications on results available today. Based on these results oils may be rated/divided into 4 big groups:

1. Visually OK
2. Prone to deposition
3. Prone to deposition & thickening
4. Prone to polymerization

Oils from the group 3 show some thickening, so it’s possible to guess that after additional exposure to heat they may pass to group 4. The group 2 could be subjectively divided (visually based on appearance of boiling flasks) into 2-3 subgroups. If to judge based on color it seems oils from subgroups 1 and 2, though prone to deposition, withstanded heat relatively well. For the 3rd one test was more tough and it's very likely that after additional exposure to heat they may fail sooner than those from subgroups 1 and 2.

1. Visually OK
Code:


AIMOL STREET LINE 5W-40

BMW Original Super Power Oil 5W-40

CASTROL Magnatec 10W-40 A3/B3

FUCHS TITAN GT1 PRO C-3 5W-30

FUCHS TITAN GT1 0W-20

TATNEFT LUX-3 10W-40 PAO

TOTAL QUARTZ 7000 SAE 10W-40

VOLGA OIL M-8B SAE 20

XENUM RUNNER (NIPPON) 5W-30

2. Prone to deposition (division by subgroups is upon my subjective perception only)
Code:


I II III

AMALIE Elexir Full Synthetic DPF 0W-20 BARDAHL XTC 5W-40 AMALIE PRO High Performance Synthetic 5W-40

BMW 0W-30 Quality Longlife LL-01FE BMW 0W-40 Quality Longlife LL-01 BARDAHL XTC C60 5W-40

BP VISCO 5000 5W-40 ENEOS GRAN-TOURING 5W-40 BP VISCO 2000 15W-40

CASTROL EDGE FST 0W-40 A3/B4 ERG CAMPEROIL SINT 15W-40 BP VISCO 3000 10W-40

CASTROL Magnatec A3/B4 SAE 5W-30 GM Genuine Motor Oil 5W-30 CASTROL EDGE 5W-30 (USA)

CASTROL SLX Professional Longtec 0W-30 GULF Formula G 5W-40 ERG OLIKRON FORMULA 5W-50

ERG OLIKRON SYNTETICO 5W-40 HONDA Genuine HG Synthetic Blend 5W-30 JAYTEC ECO RIDER 5W-20

GSOil Kixx PAO1 0W-40 IDEMITSU EXTREME TOURING 5W-40 JSOil Kixx NEO 0W-30

LIQUI MOLY SYNTHOIL ENERGY 0W-40 KENDALL GT-1 0W-20 MOBIL1 New Life 0W-40 (EU)

LIQUI MOLY SYNTHOIL HIGH TECH 5W-40 MOBIL1 0W-30 (USA) RAVENOL SSL 0W-40

LIQUI MOLY SYNTHOIL LONGTIME 0W-30 MOBIL1 0W-40 (USA) REDLINE High Performance Motor Oil 5W-40

LUKOIL STANDARD 10W-40 MOBIL SUPER 1000 15W-40 TNK MAGNUM MOTOR PLUS 15W-40

MARLY ZENOX The Ultimate Motor Oil 0W-40 PETRO CANADA SUPREME SYNTHETIC 0W-30

TOYOTA MOTOR OIL 5W-30 RHEINOIL Primus VS 0W-40

XADO 5W40 VALVOLINE SYNPower 5W-30

XENUM X1 5W-40 VOLGA OIL M-6z/14g 15W-40

ZIQ XQ 5W-40 XENUM VW LL-03 5W-30

TNK MAGNUM ULTRATEC 5W-40



3. Prone to deposition & thickening and 4. Prone to polymerization
Code:


3.Prone to deposition & thickening 4.Prone to polymerization



ARAL HIGH TRONIC 5W-40 ARAL SUPER TRONIC 0W-40

BMW ORIGINAL LL-01 5W-30 BMW High Performance Full Synthetic 5W-30

CASTROL EDGE Professional LL-III 5W-30 BMW ORIGINAL 0W-40 LL-04

CASTROL EDGE Sport 10W-60 BMW ORIGINAL SAE 5W30 QUALITY LL-04

CASTROL Magnatec 5W-30 A1 "For Ford Engines" BP VISCO 7000 0W-40

ELF EVOLUTION CRV 0W-30 CASTROL EDGE Professional 0W-30 0E

ERG SUPER ONE SINTETICO 5W-30 CASTROL EDGE Professional 5W-30 0E

GM Dexos2 Motor Oil 5W-30 CASTROL EDGE Professional BMW LL01 5W-30

LIQUI MOLY MOLYGEN 5W-50 CASTROL Magnatec C3 5W-30

MOBIL1 Extended Life 10W-60 ELF EVOLUTION SXR 5W-40

MOTUL 300V Power 5W-40 ENI AGIP i-Sint 5W-40

MOTUL 300V Power ESTER Core 5W-40 ESSO ULTRON 5W40

PENTOSIN PENTO SUPER 5W-30 FUCHS TITAN GT1 5W-40

SELENIA StAR 5W-40 ALFA ROMEO G-ENERGY F-SYNTH 0W-40

SHELL HELIX ULTRA AV-L 5W-30 HAVOLINE Synthetic 5W-40

SHELL HELIX ULTRA EXTRA 5W-30 LUKOIL LUX 5W-40

TATNEFT LUX-2 5W-40 MAZDA ORIGINAL OIL ULTRA 5W-30

TOYOTA MOTOR OIL 5W-30 (USA) MOBIL Super 3000 X1 5W-40

VW Original LL-III MOTUL 8100 X-cess 5W-40

XENUM GM DEXOS2 5W-30 MOTUL 8100 X-clean C3 5W-40

XENUM GPX 5W-40 MOTUL Specific LL-04 5W-40

XENUM WRX 7.5W-40 PETRO-CANADA SYNTHETIC 5W-40

RED LINE 50WT RACE OIL SAE 50

SHELL HELIX ULTRA 5W-40

SHELL HELIX ULTRA RACING 10W-60

TOTAL QUARTZ 9000 5W-40

TOTAL QUARTZ 9000 ENERGY 0W-30


Hope my clarifications will help.

 

[tribocessive]

400C no big deal; if you want to see a real test, go to red line synthetic oil's web sight and see what happens to oil in 6000hp drag race engines.

 

[skyship]

This test is only of significance if you overheat the engine or in some hard pushed hot running turbos. It is confusing to look at as the 40 weights should do better than the 30's and the labels in deposit terms seem incorrect in some cases. For example the LM 0/40 synthoil seems OK but gets a deposits label.
The proof of the pudding is always UOA result comparisons, although this is an interesting test in visual terms and I would avoid the obvious sludge (Polymerisation label) forming oils if they are 40 weights.

 

[tribocessive]

I agree with everything you say here, Blighty. I only ask that everyone look at the pictures of the two used racing oils. The appearances tell the story. Of course, this is entirely different than the everyday real driving world. That LM must be a good motor oil. I've seen it on the shelf of one Napa Auto Parts store. Maybe I'll give it a try.

 

[friendly_jacek]

I posted this in the previous thread on this: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2698833&page=1

Quote:
Thanks for posting this interesting study. Although I'm not familiar with some of the oils, it's remarkable to see how some oils have much better resistance to oxidation/evaporation at those temps. It's probably a combination of better base oils and additive pack. Case in point, 15W40 oils did much better than some exotic synth oils. Motul oils did terribly.

 

[Jim Allen]

This is interesting from a fantasy football POV... but I don't see the point. To me, EVERYTHING should be real world. Or at least it must be relevant to MY real world. When I wrenched for a living and I saw stuff like this, I was looking at (and smelling, which is worse) a smoked engine, trans or differential. In Realville, does it really matter that one oil has fewer deposits at 400F than another? The "why" could be interesting to understand but it's not worth allocating the brain cells to the task of understanding because I have so many more real-to-me things to figure out first.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
This is interesting from a fantasy football POV... but I don't see the point. To me, EVERYTHING should be real world. Or at least it must be relevant to MY real world. When I wrenched for a living and I saw stuff like this, I was looking at (and smelling, which is worse) a smoked engine, trans or differential. In Realville, does it really matter that one oil has fewer deposits at 400F than another? The "why" could be interesting to understand but it's not worth allocating the brain cells to the task of understanding because I have so many more real-to-me things to figure out first.


To some extent this Russian hot bottle test does provide some interesting information, even if the order and labels are a bit confusing, for example the 30 and 40 weight oils are all mixed up, as are the dino and synthetics. A dino 30 is bound to break down before a fully synthetic 40 for example.
Turbo bearings can get much hotter than this test if you suddenly switch off without a few minutes to cool down (Unless you have an electric run on type oil pump system) and that common bad habit can break down the oil in the turbo in the same way as the flask pictures show.
Deep fried oil from the turbo then passes into the main block and is one factor in sludge formation if it is not caught by the oil filter.
If your car or truck does not have a turbo or you are a careful driver, then the results of this test are not so interesting.

 

[JAG]

The temperature was stated to be 400C which is 752F. The reason the oils did not catch on fire was due to the shape of the containers causing an oxygen-depleted environment inside of them. The oil vapors pushed out the ambient air that was originally in them and continued to be produced at a high enough rate to not allow much ambient air to get back into the containers. Since the temperature was so high and the oxygen content so low, this is a thermal stability-type test rather than an oxidation-type test.

 

[Primus]

Originally Posted By: skyship
but I To some extent this Russian hot bottle test does provide some interesting information, even if the order and labels are a bit confusing, for example the 30 and 40 weight oils are all mixed up, as are the dino and synthetics. A dino 30 is bound to break down before a fully synthetic 40 for example.


These are results of tests. Since photos don't provide all details, but nearly nobody here is able to read relative comments in Russian, it was very difficult for BITOGers to judge and express their guesses about possible causes of this or that oil's behaviour. That's why I decided to classify oils somehow based on results and divided them into 4 groups putting brand names in alphabetical order. Now everybody can easily see that certain behaviours may be proper to diffent weights, synthetics, semisynthetics and dino. Thus it's necessary to search for answers somewhere else, say, in base stocks, additive packages, amount of VI and polymer nature, and their combinations.

 

[Primus]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Since the temperature was so high and the oxygen content so low, this is a thermal stability-type test rather than an oxidation-type test.

This was my guess too in another thread: the processes of aging and thermodestruction went hand by hand.


Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
To me, EVERYTHING should be real world.....

The real world is under valve covers of BMW and VW engines. Owners of most N.American or Japanese makes may relaxe, at least for the time being, but their help will be much appreciated. Who knows !

 

[Primus]

I've always found Machinery Lubrication articles very useful for generating own fresh ideas:

Finding the Root Causes of Oil Degradation

The Importance of Oil Oxidation Stability

Antioxidant Monitoring of Gas Engine Oils

And one more additional detail on results with two oils: dark spots on containers' walls (right side) with AIMOL STREET LINE 5W-40 and TOTAL QUARTZ INEO ECS 5W-30 were caused by an attempt to use a metallic catalizer.

 

[dparm]

Just noticed they have the new Motul 300V Ester Core 5w40. Surprising that a so-called "race oil" had such thickening and deposits.

I actually did see 300V (in both 5w30 and 5w40 varieties) thicken slightly after a 5k in my UOAs.

 

[Primus]

Quite interesting end of tests. This time different base oils were exposed to 380C and surprisingly nothing has happened even after 5 hours of heating ! No color changes, no thickening irrespective of type: Test of Base Oils

 

[RF Overlord]

Are all those oils actually available in Russia? If so, that's a better selection than we have HERE...

 

[Alfa_Hadera]

Sorry to bring this topic back to life, but I think I detect a problem with the test.

As the flasks were open to the air and not in a controlled env, the physical properties of the oil should have a significant effect on the results, depending on evaporation loss rate.

If a certain oil would have a high evaporation loss, the vapors would push most of the ambient air out of the flask.

If a certain oil would have a (relatively) low evaporation loss rating, more air would remain in the flask and (perhaps) contribute more to what we see as remnants.

I say perhaps on the latter, as it is a question of chemistry on how a certain base oil would react in the presence of air and a certain level of heat and lest we forget - other elements and formulations present.

So, I think the whole of this test is basically flawed and provides (as previously noted by several members) no results that can be meaningful as it does not isolate factors and I also dare to question the ability to repeat it faithfully.





BTW - I got back to this post and the test after I decided to switch oil and found that my new oil suffers (according to this test...) from hugely excessive polymerization.

You see, the new oil I got was ENI I-Sint 5W40 - a hydrocracked (synthetic technology) European oil (with maybe a bit of ester) that boasts 240 Degrees Celsius Flash Point...