In 40 S&W caliber, which is better for home defense: 180 GR. bonded JHP or 135 GR. JHP? Both are Winchester brand.
Home defense ammo
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I would use the 135, lighter faster round will use its energy quicker on the vermin instead of whats on the other side such as walls doors etc.
Between those 2 I'd pick the 180 but prefer the 155-165 grain loads in the .40S&W.
The Federal 155JHP is the load that I carry. Excellent performance in ACTUAL shootings (its the Border Patrol and many LEO offical load) plus they come 50 to a box priced reasonable so practice is something you can do more of.
Bill
The Federal 155JHP is the load that I carry. Excellent performance in ACTUAL shootings (its the Border Patrol and many LEO offical load) plus they come 50 to a box priced reasonable so practice is something you can do more of.
Bill
The 135GR. is labeled Winchester Ranger "Law Enforcement" ammunition. I bought some of each but haven't fired either yet. What is the difference between the jacketed hollow point and the "bonded" jacketed hollow point? The bonded one looks like the edge around the hollow point is heavily crimped as to have a serrated appearance like it is intended to split on impact at the crimps.
The "Bonded" stuff is actually electroplated to the lead core.
No cup-and-core design to separate. It also provides "programmed" performance, in that they can better control what it will do in most situations.
I think last months "Guns & Ammo" magazine had a large article about this.
There are other options that don't have bonded jackets.
Such as the Hornady Critical Duty.
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/05/16/hornadys-critical-duty-faces-the-fbi-ammunition-protocol-test/
The technology is different, but does similar stuff.
Go shoot a few of both.
I'd probably go with the lighter stuff. Less recoil = more control for follow up shots.
No cup-and-core design to separate. It also provides "programmed" performance, in that they can better control what it will do in most situations.
I think last months "Guns & Ammo" magazine had a large article about this.
There are other options that don't have bonded jackets.
Such as the Hornady Critical Duty.
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/05/16/hornadys-critical-duty-faces-the-fbi-ammunition-protocol-test/
The technology is different, but does similar stuff.
Go shoot a few of both.
I'd probably go with the lighter stuff. Less recoil = more control for follow up shots.
Just remember, it's not the arrow, it's the indian that counts.
I'd go for the heavier round.
If someone is trying to kick down your door, shoot him while he is on the other side.
"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".
If you are worried about who is in another room across the street, you are using the wrong weapon. Get a 12 gauge with 3" buckshot or call the cops and twiddle your thumbs while an intruder shoots up the place.
Worry about your imminent domain first. You don't need a 235 lb. intruder on PCP and crack shrugging off 135gr. slugs while you try to clear a jam.
An old test by a self defense instructor was "try to shoot me". The instructor would then hold up a newspaper while the student tried to point the gun around the newspaper. The instructor would then ask, "why didn't you just shoot me through the newspaper??".
If a crook sees you have a gun and tries to hide behind a couch, shoot him through the couch. A table? Let him have it. It isn't the movies, and if you try to shoot through objects to kill an assailant, bullet weight is your friend.
If someone is trying to kick down your door, shoot him while he is on the other side.
"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".
If you are worried about who is in another room across the street, you are using the wrong weapon. Get a 12 gauge with 3" buckshot or call the cops and twiddle your thumbs while an intruder shoots up the place.
Worry about your imminent domain first. You don't need a 235 lb. intruder on PCP and crack shrugging off 135gr. slugs while you try to clear a jam.
An old test by a self defense instructor was "try to shoot me". The instructor would then hold up a newspaper while the student tried to point the gun around the newspaper. The instructor would then ask, "why didn't you just shoot me through the newspaper??".
If a crook sees you have a gun and tries to hide behind a couch, shoot him through the couch. A table? Let him have it. It isn't the movies, and if you try to shoot through objects to kill an assailant, bullet weight is your friend.
Originally Posted By: Falken
I'd go for the heavier round.
If someone is trying to kick down your door, shoot him while he is on the other side.
"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".
If you are worried about who is in another room across the street, you are using the wrong weapon. Get a 12 gauge with 3" buckshot or call the cops and twiddle your thumbs while an intruder shoots up the place.
Worry about your imminent domain first. You don't need a 235 lb. intruder on PCP and crack shrugging off 135gr. slugs while you try to clear a jam.
An old test by a self defense instructor was "try to shoot me". The instructor would then hold up a newspaper while the student tried to point the gun around the newspaper. The instructor would then ask, "why didn't you just shoot me through the newspaper??".
If a crook sees you have a gun and tries to hide behind a couch, shoot him through the couch. A table? Let him have it. It isn't the movies, and if you try to shoot through objects to kill an assailant, bullet weight is your friend.
Good points here. I just finished with a handgun/self-defense course. Instructor mentioned how silly it is to try and use super light, overly fragmenting self defense rounds designed NOT to penetrate walls and such. He said that when in a gun fight, and doing everything you can to kill the intruder and stay alive....shooting through walls, doors, and furniture is an important tactic to remember as it's a natural thing for anybody to try and use them (mistakenly) as cover.
I'd go for the heavier round.
If someone is trying to kick down your door, shoot him while he is on the other side.
"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".
If you are worried about who is in another room across the street, you are using the wrong weapon. Get a 12 gauge with 3" buckshot or call the cops and twiddle your thumbs while an intruder shoots up the place.
Worry about your imminent domain first. You don't need a 235 lb. intruder on PCP and crack shrugging off 135gr. slugs while you try to clear a jam.
An old test by a self defense instructor was "try to shoot me". The instructor would then hold up a newspaper while the student tried to point the gun around the newspaper. The instructor would then ask, "why didn't you just shoot me through the newspaper??".
If a crook sees you have a gun and tries to hide behind a couch, shoot him through the couch. A table? Let him have it. It isn't the movies, and if you try to shoot through objects to kill an assailant, bullet weight is your friend.
Good points here. I just finished with a handgun/self-defense course. Instructor mentioned how silly it is to try and use super light, overly fragmenting self defense rounds designed NOT to penetrate walls and such. He said that when in a gun fight, and doing everything you can to kill the intruder and stay alive....shooting through walls, doors, and furniture is an important tactic to remember as it's a natural thing for anybody to try and use them (mistakenly) as cover.
Ahh...the diffference between cover and concealment...one protects, the other does not...
FWIW, I used to carry Speer Gold Dot 165 GR JHP in .40 S&W, now it's Federal 180 GR HST JHP in .40 S&W.
I would choose the 180 GR in your case...I am a Gold Dot fan...and would advocate considering that line...but definitely go for the heavier round.
FWIW, I used to carry Speer Gold Dot 165 GR JHP in .40 S&W, now it's Federal 180 GR HST JHP in .40 S&W.
I would choose the 180 GR in your case...I am a Gold Dot fan...and would advocate considering that line...but definitely go for the heavier round.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Ahh...the diffference between cover and concealment...one protects, the other does not...
FWIW, I used to carry Speer Gold Dot 165 GR JHP in .40 S&W, now it's Federal 180 GR HST JHP in .40 S&W.
I would choose the 180 GR in your case...I am a Gold Dot fan...and would advocate considering that line...but definitely go for the heavier round.
Indeed. Cover and concealment are VERY different. Also, center mass is equally important. Especially if the bad guy is peeking around a door with just his head poking out....why shoot at his head when you've got his entire body on the other side of the door?
Ahh...the diffference between cover and concealment...one protects, the other does not...
FWIW, I used to carry Speer Gold Dot 165 GR JHP in .40 S&W, now it's Federal 180 GR HST JHP in .40 S&W.
I would choose the 180 GR in your case...I am a Gold Dot fan...and would advocate considering that line...but definitely go for the heavier round.
Indeed. Cover and concealment are VERY different. Also, center mass is equally important. Especially if the bad guy is peeking around a door with just his head poking out....why shoot at his head when you've got his entire body on the other side of the door?
Use what you practice with. If you practice with 180, use that for you home protection or carry.
Our duty loads are speer gold dot. They come in a few weights and either would be great depending on the weapon. The speers replaced the Ranger SXT's we used to have. Stay away from the federal hydra-shok rounds. The tests that the state did showed that they did not expant really at all when going through denim.
I'm not at all convinced it matters, or that "high expansion" "high power" ammo will be in any way better. I use ball ammo in everything. I'd rather have reliable, consistent, understandable performance.
It worked exceptionally well in WWII and it will work well now.
It worked exceptionally well in WWII and it will work well now.
+1 Cujet
Another major benefit of ball ammo is it doesn't jam nearly as much as "flying ashtray" ammo.
Another thing to note is when a hollow point gets plugged with clothes or the guy's ribs, it won't expand anymore anyway.
You loose bullet mass to accomodate the hole, and bullet structure is almost lost when penetrating steel beams in modern construction, or heavy wood doors.
Also, if you were in front of a Grand Jury, you can argue that your bullet is "humane" and follows the Geneva Convention, and you didn't use hollow points that anyone would argue are purely man-killer ammo. Keep the spin on your side, so to speak.
Ball ammo is also much cheaper to practice with, hollow point ammo is pricey.
Also, now people can say that I am speaking nonsense, but ball ammo turns your gun into an actual tool, and you can base strategies off of it. You can be on another floor and shoot through tiles downward if you know where he is waiting or hiding.
The bullet would still have enough poop to punch through his skull and drop into his lap, spent, and still look like a bullet.
If you have to flee, you can shoot off hinges with ease, knock cheap master locks off of gates, shoot clean through both car doors to kill someone hiding on the other side (lay down and look for their feet and guess where their body mass would be if they are crouching and punch right through the whole car if there is no engine in the way).
Keep in mind, a .22LR goes clean through a car door, and both with ease if it doesn't strike the lowering arms to raise and lower the glass.
Ball ammo doesn't deform when dropped onto a hard surface. If you drop it into sand, it is cleaned as soon as it is picked up. Dropped in mud, you can clean them simply by putting them back into a jean pocket and using them last.
Edit: Forgot to mention, if you drop a hollow point in mud, and load it into an auto, the racking of the slide shucking the shell into the chamber will "toss" the mud and debris forward, into your barrel. When you pull the trigger, the slug rides over a gritty obstruction with unpredictable results. The barrel probably wont explode, but it is ruined for accuracy, most likely.
Another major benefit of ball ammo is it doesn't jam nearly as much as "flying ashtray" ammo.
Another thing to note is when a hollow point gets plugged with clothes or the guy's ribs, it won't expand anymore anyway.
You loose bullet mass to accomodate the hole, and bullet structure is almost lost when penetrating steel beams in modern construction, or heavy wood doors.
Also, if you were in front of a Grand Jury, you can argue that your bullet is "humane" and follows the Geneva Convention, and you didn't use hollow points that anyone would argue are purely man-killer ammo. Keep the spin on your side, so to speak.
Ball ammo is also much cheaper to practice with, hollow point ammo is pricey.
Also, now people can say that I am speaking nonsense, but ball ammo turns your gun into an actual tool, and you can base strategies off of it. You can be on another floor and shoot through tiles downward if you know where he is waiting or hiding.
The bullet would still have enough poop to punch through his skull and drop into his lap, spent, and still look like a bullet.
If you have to flee, you can shoot off hinges with ease, knock cheap master locks off of gates, shoot clean through both car doors to kill someone hiding on the other side (lay down and look for their feet and guess where their body mass would be if they are crouching and punch right through the whole car if there is no engine in the way).
Keep in mind, a .22LR goes clean through a car door, and both with ease if it doesn't strike the lowering arms to raise and lower the glass.
Ball ammo doesn't deform when dropped onto a hard surface. If you drop it into sand, it is cleaned as soon as it is picked up. Dropped in mud, you can clean them simply by putting them back into a jean pocket and using them last.
Edit: Forgot to mention, if you drop a hollow point in mud, and load it into an auto, the racking of the slide shucking the shell into the chamber will "toss" the mud and debris forward, into your barrel. When you pull the trigger, the slug rides over a gritty obstruction with unpredictable results. The barrel probably wont explode, but it is ruined for accuracy, most likely.
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Ball ammo didn't work well in WWII and it doesn't work well now, it's required by the international laws on armed conflict to which we, the US, agree.
It's well proven that JHPs are more effective in stopping the threat. Further, in over 5,000 rounds of .40 S&W JHP going through my H&K USP compact, there has been not one failure/feed problem.
Not one.
The contention that JHPs are unreliable isn't proven out through testing or certification. If you're carrying loose rounds around that might fall in the mud, you're no longer discussing home defense or LE use, in which your weapon would be holstered or stored, you're talking about plinking in the woods, and for that, I would use .22 ball ammo anyway.
Because the round is more effective, and it is reliable, JHPs are duty rounds for LE, including federal agents.
In a gunfight, I am not concerned with what a grand jury might think - I only care about performance...reliablility and effectiveness.
Besides, the Grand Jury only indicts, it's the Jury that would convict - and if you're worried about that, you shouldn't be carrying a gun because you don't understand when and how it should be used...
Before you carry - learn the law, particularly concerning the use of lethal force as they are written in your state.
It's well proven that JHPs are more effective in stopping the threat. Further, in over 5,000 rounds of .40 S&W JHP going through my H&K USP compact, there has been not one failure/feed problem.
Not one.
The contention that JHPs are unreliable isn't proven out through testing or certification. If you're carrying loose rounds around that might fall in the mud, you're no longer discussing home defense or LE use, in which your weapon would be holstered or stored, you're talking about plinking in the woods, and for that, I would use .22 ball ammo anyway.
Because the round is more effective, and it is reliable, JHPs are duty rounds for LE, including federal agents.
In a gunfight, I am not concerned with what a grand jury might think - I only care about performance...reliablility and effectiveness.
Besides, the Grand Jury only indicts, it's the Jury that would convict - and if you're worried about that, you shouldn't be carrying a gun because you don't understand when and how it should be used...
Before you carry - learn the law, particularly concerning the use of lethal force as they are written in your state.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Ball ammo didn't work well in WWII and it doesn't work well now, it's required by the international laws on armed conflict to which we, the US, agree.
It's well proven that JHPs are more effective in stopping the threat. Further, in over 5,000 rounds of .40 S&W JHP going through my H&K USP compact, there has been not one failure/feed problem.
Not one.
The contention that JHPs are unreliable isn't proven out through testing or certification. If you're carrying loose rounds around that might fall in the mud, you're no longer discussing home defense or LE use, in which your weapon would be holstered or stored, you're talking about plinking in the woods, and for that, I would use .22 ball ammo anyway.
Because the round is more effective, and it is reliable, JHPs are duty rounds for LE, including federal agents.
In a gunfight, I am not concerned with what a grand jury might think - I only care about performance...reliablility and effectiveness.
Besides, the Grand Jury only indicts, it's the Jury that would convict - and if you're worried about that, you shouldn't be carrying a gun because you don't understand when and how it should be used...
Before you carry - learn the law, particularly concerning the use of lethal force as they are written in your state.
Good post. Makes sense. However, in relatively jam-prone firearms such as an AMT Backup .380ACP that I own, I only use ball. Why? Several tests have shown the weapon to jam with JHP and therefor it's rather prudent to use ball. It would also be rather prudent for me to get rid of the weapon.....and I am. My main conceal/home defense handgun is a Ruger LCR in .357 Mag. Being a revolver I am very free to use whatever I choose and have no worries about feeding or function. That's one of the reasons I use a revolver even though it has limits in capacity.
Ball ammo didn't work well in WWII and it doesn't work well now, it's required by the international laws on armed conflict to which we, the US, agree.
It's well proven that JHPs are more effective in stopping the threat. Further, in over 5,000 rounds of .40 S&W JHP going through my H&K USP compact, there has been not one failure/feed problem.
Not one.
The contention that JHPs are unreliable isn't proven out through testing or certification. If you're carrying loose rounds around that might fall in the mud, you're no longer discussing home defense or LE use, in which your weapon would be holstered or stored, you're talking about plinking in the woods, and for that, I would use .22 ball ammo anyway.
Because the round is more effective, and it is reliable, JHPs are duty rounds for LE, including federal agents.
In a gunfight, I am not concerned with what a grand jury might think - I only care about performance...reliablility and effectiveness.
Besides, the Grand Jury only indicts, it's the Jury that would convict - and if you're worried about that, you shouldn't be carrying a gun because you don't understand when and how it should be used...
Before you carry - learn the law, particularly concerning the use of lethal force as they are written in your state.
Good post. Makes sense. However, in relatively jam-prone firearms such as an AMT Backup .380ACP that I own, I only use ball. Why? Several tests have shown the weapon to jam with JHP and therefor it's rather prudent to use ball. It would also be rather prudent for me to get rid of the weapon.....and I am. My main conceal/home defense handgun is a Ruger LCR in .357 Mag. Being a revolver I am very free to use whatever I choose and have no worries about feeding or function. That's one of the reasons I use a revolver even though it has limits in capacity.
Please note.
The Geneva Convention does not cover types of weapons and how they are used. It covers actions of MILITARY forces.
It is the Hague Convention that covers types of weapons.
They are both publicly available if you want to pour over several hundred pages of Legal Speak.
The argument of what is "humane" is a moot point.
The argument is if an individual "Feared for their life and the lives of those around them and was only trying to STOP the actions of the individual as quickly as possible".
BTW, Even the NYPD went to hollow-points after several multi million settlements based on their officers having several situations where they had shot completely through a suspect and the projectile went down range, sometimes through several walls, and hit someone else.
Even if you are looking for a caliber sized hole you have nothing to lose with a conventional hollow point. If you miss, and most highly trained individuals miss more than they hit, the projectile will expend more of its energy with every board of dry wall, door, window, object that it strikes. A Full Metal Jacket will only stick together and penetrate these.
The only reason you should choose a FMJ projectile is
1. The firearm will not feed anything else
2. There is nothing else available
Police don't use FMJ ammo. Hunters don't use FMJ ammo. It's good to have fun with and that's about it.
Pistols are firearms of convenience, not very powerful, just handy.
The real power houses are Rifles and Shotguns.
Pistols punch holes in things, Rifles and Shotguns Destroy them.
The best site that I know of for testing projectiles.
For your reading pleasure.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
The Geneva Convention does not cover types of weapons and how they are used. It covers actions of MILITARY forces.
It is the Hague Convention that covers types of weapons.
They are both publicly available if you want to pour over several hundred pages of Legal Speak.
The argument of what is "humane" is a moot point.
The argument is if an individual "Feared for their life and the lives of those around them and was only trying to STOP the actions of the individual as quickly as possible".
BTW, Even the NYPD went to hollow-points after several multi million settlements based on their officers having several situations where they had shot completely through a suspect and the projectile went down range, sometimes through several walls, and hit someone else.
Even if you are looking for a caliber sized hole you have nothing to lose with a conventional hollow point. If you miss, and most highly trained individuals miss more than they hit, the projectile will expend more of its energy with every board of dry wall, door, window, object that it strikes. A Full Metal Jacket will only stick together and penetrate these.
The only reason you should choose a FMJ projectile is
1. The firearm will not feed anything else
2. There is nothing else available
Police don't use FMJ ammo. Hunters don't use FMJ ammo. It's good to have fun with and that's about it.
Pistols are firearms of convenience, not very powerful, just handy.
The real power houses are Rifles and Shotguns.
Pistols punch holes in things, Rifles and Shotguns Destroy them.
The best site that I know of for testing projectiles.
For your reading pleasure.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
Quote:
Police don't use FMJ ammo.
Yes. If someone is worried about the legality or effects on a jury regarding hollow points, find out what the local police carry and use that.
Police don't use FMJ ammo.
Yes. If someone is worried about the legality or effects on a jury regarding hollow points, find out what the local police carry and use that.
Exactly, using JHP ammo will not get you in trouble. I always say use what the FBI or you local PD or Sheriffs Dept uses. They won't grill you for using what local authorities do to protect themselves in the line of duty. And actually a FMJ round tends to penetrate too much, which in a self defense situation can get you in more trouble.
I still have a stash of Black Talons for home invasion use. LOL...
Otherwise, I would go with a 155-165 load.
Otherwise, I would go with a 155-165 load.
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