So group III oils aren't really synthetic?

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I honestly never knew about group 3, 4, etc oils until I saw a single post mention it earlier today, so I looked into it a little bit. I recently filled my car with Pennzoil Ultra 5w-30 (2012 Subaru WRX), but now I'm reading that this oil is a group 3, thus not really good?

So what in the world should I be running in my car then? It needs synthetic. How can PU be labeled synthetic if it isn't?
 
Group III is synthetic (hydrocracked basestock). Pennzoil Ultra is Group III+ (GTL) basestock.
 
It's not synthetic in the true and literal sense of the word.

As Shell used to describe their XHVI, "mineral based with the performance of a synthetic", which is accurate, and how it should be reported.

Calling something "synthetic" because of it's performance is still not honest or accurate, even 'though the performance may be well near immeasurable.
 
The way the word has been tossed around and misused, as far as I'm concerned, synthetic oil is whatever you want it to be. The only place the word really matters is in Germany, where labelling laws regarding the use or wording are strict.

Any manufacturer that calls for a synthetic without using a proprietary or ACEA specification is simply asking for trouble, since the word is almost meaningless. Heck, even the Germans have realized that, and don't call for "fully synthetic" in their manuals. They call for a certain BMW, MB, or VW/Audi specification.

Here's a head scratcher for you with respect to your Subaru. Find me a predominantly Group IV or Group V 5w-30 that is both SN and GF-5 rated (which, if I recall correctly, is what your Subaru requires - either that or SM/GF-4) that you can buy anywhere on the shelf, or even on a Subaru dealer's shelf. If you're going to count Subaru labelled oil, explain why, and "Subaru says it's synthetic" isn't sufficient.

Additionally, there's nothing wrong with PP or PU, regardless of group content.
 
Group IIIs are a somewhat controversial class as they are derived from crude oil like Groups I & II, but their molecules have been so changed by severe processing that they are marketed as Synthetics. Most people now accept Group IIIs as synthetic, but the discussion remains heated among purists, and I’m going to duck by not taking a side here.

Synthetic base oils are manufactured by man from relatively pure and simple chemical building blocks, which are then reacted together or synthesized into new, larger molecules. The resulting synthetic basestock consists only of the preselected molecules and has no undesirable weak links that inhibit performance. This ability to preselect or design specific ideal molecules tailored for a given job, and then create those molecules and only those molecules, opens a whole new world for making superior basestocks for lubricants. In fact, the entire formulation approach is different: instead of trying to clean up a naturally occurring chemical soup to acceptable levels with a constant eye on cost, the synthetic chemist is able to focus on optimum performance in a specific application with the knowledge that he can build the necessary molecules to achieve it. And since full synthetic oils are generally a company’s premier offering, their best foot forward so to speak, the additives are often better and in higher doses as performance trumps cost.

In general, synthetic base oils offer higher oxidative and thermal stability, lower pour points, lower volatility, higher VI, higher flash points, higher lubricity, better fuel economy, and better engine cleanliness. The amount and balance of these improvements vary by synthetic type, and can be quite significant for the engine and user.

There are many types of synthetic base oils, the most common being Polyalphaolefins (PAOs), Esters, Alkylated Naphthenes (ANs), and more recently Group IIIs. These different types of synthetic base oils are often blended together (or even with mineral oils), to give the balance of properties desired. All offer improved performance, but at a higher price, which brings up the question of value – how much performance to you need, and how much should you pay for it?

For the average car owner, driving conditions are mild enough for conventional mineral oils to work satisfactorily, provided they are changed relatively frequently (3,000-5,000 miles). For those users with high performance engines, severe climates, hard driving, or utilizing long drain intervals, synthetics can offer good value and may even be required. And then there are those who so love their cars that nothing but the very best will do for their baby.

So, as you can see, modern motor oils are very simple mixtures of very complex ingredients. Choosing the right components of the right chemistry in the right dosages is a real balancing act, as each of the components have their own pluses and minuses and can interact or compete with each other. Don’t try this at home – leave it to companies you trust who have the technology, R&D, and resources to achieve the necessary balance so critical to performance.

Copyright © 2011 Bob is the Oil Guy. All Rights Reserved.
 
You can thank BP/Castrol for Group III being labeled "synthetic", only via a court case. That said, they do a decent job, and per my other thread on SN oil, they seem to be in EVERYTHING now, even "conventional" oil.
 
You can thank Castrol...BP weren't in that equation at the time.

"Synthetic" doesn't define a "performance" parameter (same as "organic" doesn't either).

"Performance" doesn't make something synthetic.
 
In the USA they are considered synthetic thanks to the lawsuit already mentioned. In other parts of the world, Germany for example, they really can't be called a synthetic oil.
 
Originally Posted By: Josh8519
I honestly never knew about group 3, 4, etc oils until I saw a single post mention it earlier today, so I looked into it a little bit. I recently filled my car with Pennzoil Ultra 5w-30 (2012 Subaru WRX), but now I'm reading that this oil is a group 3, thus not really good?

So what in the world should I be running in my car then? It needs synthetic. How can PU be labeled synthetic if it isn't?


Relax - Don't get all caught up in semantic distinctions, worry about performance. Pennzoil Ultra is a great oil and will do an excellent job in your car.
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Relax - Don't get all caught up in semantic distinctions, worry about performance. Pennzoil Ultra is a great oil and will do an excellent job in your car.

Agreed.

What I find really interesting is that it took the OP 4 years to realize there are different oil bases out there.
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
Group IIIs are a somewhat controversial class as they are derived from crude oil like Groups I & II, but their molecules have been so changed by severe processing that they are marketed as Synthetics.


Guess where the NG/ethylene comes from that creates the other group syns? Offgas from cat crackers, cracking CRUDE!
 
I clicked on this thread because I figured someone would mention lawsuit and court case, neither which are not correct.
smile.gif


Josh,

There are a few Pennzoil uoa's here which are only a handful of uoa's of Energy/Resource Conserving oils in a WRX and they're very good IMO.

-Dennis
 
This is sort of like watching a talent contest in which everyone is required to sing the same song so we get to hear it over and over and over and over again.
 
Subaru's very own label synthetic oil is a Grp III and Subaru is perfectly upfront in saying this.
The whole discussion of what is and isn't synthetic has probably used as much bandwidth here as has the argument over thick versus thin oil for any given application.
If 10W-40 is recommended for the Prius in Outer Mongolia, then why is 0W-20 recommended here?
That sort of thing.
For most uses and most users, a good Grp III is as good as it gets.
You can pay more, but you may not get more.
Ultra is one of the best off the shelf oils you can get.
Rest easy in having used it.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Subaru's very own label synthetic oil is a Grp III and Subaru is perfectly upfront in saying this.
The whole discussion of what is and isn't synthetic has probably used as much bandwidth here as has the argument over thick versus thin oil for any given application.
If 10W-40 is recommended for the Prius in Outer Mongolia, then why is 0W-20 recommended here?
That sort of thing.
For most uses and most users, a good Grp III is as good as it gets.
You can pay more, but you may not get more.
Ultra is one of the best off the shelf oils you can get.


guess we could call mobil one direct and ask them.
Rest easy in having used it.
 
A recent Amsoil study of various "synthetic" oils had the Pennzoil Ultra (group III) coming in second place behind Amsoil. Apparently, some group 3 oils can be very good. To my surprise, in virtually all performance parameters, the group 3 Pennzoil Ultra outperformed the Group V Redline. Wouldn't have believed that until I saw the study.
 
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