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#2695462 - 07/25/12 09:56 PM Liqui Moly Ceratec
eta Offline


Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 20
Loc: Washington State
Ceratec is now available at yapscarparts.com, I requested he stock it and I noticed it's now available for $24.95 for anyone who might be interested.
_________________________
2009 Ford Focus-35K-
TGMO 0W20-D+3330
Liqui Moly Motor Protect

1999 Ford Exp. Lim. AWD 5.0L-121k-
LM Longtime High Tech 5W30-M1-210
Liqui Moly MOs2

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#2695523 - 07/25/12 10:47 PM Re: Liqui Moly Ceratec [Re: eta]
skyship Offline


Registered: 06/09/12
Posts: 2071
Loc: Tettnang, Baden-Wurttemberg, G...
In general oil additives don't work and should only be considered when an engine has a specific problem that they might help alleviate, like a minor oil leak if you can't fix it. They are of some use in extending the service interval when you need to top the TBN of an older oil, BUT I would only consider using an additive from the same company as make the oil and after checking very carefully with the various forums to see if it might work or cause a problem like some engine flush additives.
Luckily Liqui Moly make some very good oils and I have been doing some research into Ceretec as it seems to be about the only friction reducing additive that does work to some extent.
Firstly I would caution you that it might not be good for the spark plugs if you have a petrol car, although that possible side effect seems fairly minimal. Secondly some of the engineers and chemical engineering chaps here in Germany have said that although the UOA results show an improvement in wear metals, it does nothing for cylinder head wear or carbon deposit issues, so if you use it about every 25K km (It doesn't seem to last as long as advertised) longterm, your engine will eventually fail because of valve seating or other top end problems rather than ring or bearing wear.
With some engine types that could be good news, but with others it means the engine life will not be improved. I am only thinking of using Ceretec because it might well help enough to make a cheaper top end overhaul possible, because the 1.9D in my Volvo is a very good diesel, but on average it fails from bearing and ring wear before cylinder head problems.
I don't think this additive will make the turbo last any longer as they fail because of poor driver style, bad oil or poor filtration issues and the very high oil temperatures would burn if off the turbo shell bearings.
Ceretec does seem to reduce general rattle slightly and is worth considering, but as always DYOR and if you get a UOA before and after use, please post as I would be very interested to read some more. Also I have yet to read a lab analysis of what minor extras it contains and that is needed to interpret the UOA results.

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#2695537 - 07/25/12 11:03 PM Re: Liqui Moly Ceratec [Re: eta]
MBS500 Offline


Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 665
Loc: Crestwood,KY
I Used Ceratec in my previous car. It did improve wear numbers a little. But comparing LM MoS2($8) vs CeraTec($30) not a big difference.
P.S. 1mz-fe sludge monster engine, may be other engines will benefit from it, but $8 vs $30 and not to much improvement over $8 can...


Edited by MBS500 (07/25/12 11:04 PM)
_________________________
13 Fiat 500Turbo:9k,M1 0w40/Mopar filter+Ceratec
06 BMW 550i:81k,Mag1 5w40/Champ filter+MoS2
06 Frontier:110k,Oil lefovers mix/P1

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#2697758 - 07/28/12 07:44 AM Re: Liqui Moly Ceratec [Re: eta]
Falcon_LS Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 3582
Loc: Kuwait
Originally Posted By: skyship
In general oil additives don't work and should only be considered when an engine has a specific problem that they might help alleviate, like a minor oil leak if you can't fix it. They are of some use in extending the service interval when you need to top the TBN of an older oil, BUT I would only consider using an additive from the same company as make the oil and after checking very carefully with the various forums to see if it might work or cause a problem like some engine flush additives.
Luckily Liqui Moly make some very good oils and I have been doing some research into Ceretec as it seems to be about the only friction reducing additive that does work to some extent.
Firstly I would caution you that it might not be good for the spark plugs if you have a petrol car, although that possible side effect seems fairly minimal. Secondly some of the engineers and chemical engineering chaps here in Germany have said that although the UOA results show an improvement in wear metals, it does nothing for cylinder head wear or carbon deposit issues, so if you use it about every 25K km (It doesn't seem to last as long as advertised) longterm, your engine will eventually fail because of valve seating or other top end problems rather than ring or bearing wear.
With some engine types that could be good news, but with others it means the engine life will not be improved. I am only thinking of using Ceretec because it might well help enough to make a cheaper top end overhaul possible, because the 1.9D in my Volvo is a very good diesel, but on average it fails from bearing and ring wear before cylinder head problems.
I don't think this additive will make the turbo last any longer as they fail because of poor driver style, bad oil or poor filtration issues and the very high oil temperatures would burn if off the turbo shell bearings.
Ceretec does seem to reduce general rattle slightly and is worth considering, but as always DYOR and if you get a UOA before and after use, please post as I would be very interested to read some more. Also I have yet to read a lab analysis of what minor extras it contains and that is needed to interpret the UOA results.


Originally Posted By: Liqui-Moly Area Export Manager
Hi -,

We have never ever heard that Ceratec is causing problems with spark plugs.

You are right - if you have an old worn out engine it burns oil (oil finds a way into combustion chamber) but the problems coming from the oil - not from Ceratec.

Also it is not true that additive shall be from same manufacturer as oil manufacturer.

Of course LM Ceratec is not an oil quality improver - if you use Ceratec ina poor local produced 20W-50 you can not expect miracles.


Cera Tec has been independently tested by Automobil-Prüftechnik-Landau GmbH (APL). Here's some information from a Liqui-Moly PDF on Cera Tec (if anyone wants a copy, I can email it):

Originally Posted By: Liqui-Moly
CERA TEC
Motor oil additive
With high-tech ceramic anti-wear protection


How does CERA TEC work?
The graphite-like structure of the ceramic particles enables them to fill in the roughness present in the metal, thereby preventing direct metal-on-metal contact. An active chemical (friction modifier) utilizes the existing friction energy to ensure flowing i.e. non-abrasive – smoothing, annealing the friction and bearing points.

CERA TEC is a suspension based on a microceramic solid lubricant and chemical active agents in mineral oil. This combination reduces friction and protects the engine and transmission against wear. This in turn prevents expensive repairs and prolongs the life of the assemblies.

CERA TEC offers high mechanical and thermal stability, ensuring outstanding lubrication even under the toughest conditions. Engine and transmission noise are reduced.
It saves energy, reduces fuel consumption and thus also pollutant emissions.

CERA TEC reacts directly with the surface of the metal and protects your engine for up to 50,000 kilometers - even with the oil being changed during that period.

Properties of CERA TEC
CERA TEC is self-mixing and compatible with all standard motor oils. It is ideal for use in oil-lubricated transmissions, pumps and compressors. Also tested for vehicles
with turbochargers, catalytic converters or particle filters. In new vehicles, CERA TEC supports engine break-in and protects against excessive wear. With a particle size of only 0.2 μm, it is absolutely compatible with all fi lters. Do not use in automatic transmissions and motorbikes with a wet clutch!

How is CERA TEC applied?
- direct addition to the motor or transmission oil (cold or warm)
- ideally, pour in together with fresh oil when changing the oil
- otherwise apply when there is at least 5,000 km to go before the next oil change so that CERA TEC has plenty of time in which to have an effect
- 300 ml is suffi cient for up to 5 liters of motor oil
- the optimal dosage is about 6 % of the total oil fill quantity
- oil change intervals as per the service documents of the vehicle to be followed

Test arrangement image with two interlocking gear wheels.

Who is APL?
Formed in 1989, APL is a neutral and independent, internationally renowned development service provider,
working for a worldwide client base from the automobile, oil and additives industries. The company is specialized in the mechanics of engine and drive trains and their operating supplies. On nearly 145 state of the art engine and component test rigs, more than 700 employees apply the latest measurement technology.

What was tested?
The APL experts determined the relative scuffing load capacity of lubrication oils. Between the edges of the teeth, rolling off and sliding occur at the same time. Due to unfavorable operating conditions the lubricant film can break down between the tooth edges. This leads to short-term local fusion and disintegration of the edges, so-called scuffing, which causes damage to the smooth surface of the teeth edges.
Possible consequences: higher engine and transmission noise until failure of the gear wheels occurs.

Test sequence
On the vehicle distortion test bench the test oil was mixed with 6 per cent CERA TEC. With each test sequence the weight, and thereby the force level, on the sensitive transmission gear wheels was increased. The aim of the experiment is to reach the damage force level. This level is reached when the sum of all damage caused to the teeth of the gear wheels is more than 20 millimeters. The test is then ended. The reference oil came up to damage force level 4; the oil mixed with CERA TEC reached as far as level 9, hence to more than double the level. CERA TEC markedly increases the power reserve, which confirms the anti-wear protection by
the fine ceramic particles, is how Dipl.-Ing. Peter Kunz, who supervised the test, summarizes the results. Kunz’s initial skepticism gave way: After the tests I was
amazed. The product has made everything, and I really mean everything, better.

Just the demand for APL’s expertise alone has been unusual. «LIQUI MOLY is the first company in the after-sales market that has been prepared to undergo voluntary tests», said Kunz. He is responsible for the testing of lubricants and fuels.

In short: CERA TEC reduces the amount of friction and thereby the wear. This in turn benefits the engine, which is under less load. This can result in a lower susceptibility to repair and longer service life.
_________________________
99 Mustang: M1 0W-40/FL820S
00 Pajero: M1 0W-40/26300-35503
01 Marquis: M1 ESP Formula 5W-30/FL820S
05 Envoy: M1 ESP Formula 5W-30/51522XP

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#2700083 - 07/30/12 06:20 PM Re: Liqui Moly Ceratec [Re: eta]
eta Offline


Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 20
Loc: Washington State
Thanks for the post Falcon_LS, I know from my experience over 20yrs. that Liqui Moly products are the only ones I've ever felt the difference in my vehicles performance and even my wife will comment which is unusual. I trust totally that what they say their products do, they are doing. Thanks.
_________________________
2009 Ford Focus-35K-
TGMO 0W20-D+3330
Liqui Moly Motor Protect

1999 Ford Exp. Lim. AWD 5.0L-121k-
LM Longtime High Tech 5W30-M1-210
Liqui Moly MOs2

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#2700137 - 07/30/12 07:21 PM Re: Liqui Moly Ceratec [Re: eta]
edhackett Online   content


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1572
Loc: Sequim, WA
The test APL ran has no applicability to the lubrication of an engine. The test is an EP test for gear oils and greases. It doesn't tell you anything useful about motor oil. Amsoil's four ball test and the "one armed bandit" testers fall in the same category.

Ed
_________________________
Never attribute to engineers that into which politicians, lawyers, accountants, and marketeers have poked their fingers.

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#2701179 - 07/31/12 07:22 PM Re: Liqui Moly Ceratec [Re: Falcon_LS]
skyship Offline


Registered: 06/09/12
Posts: 2071
Loc: Tettnang, Baden-Wurttemberg, G...
The additional glazing of spark plugs caused by Ceretec is only of concern if you don't change them at the correct interval and as most folks here are diesel fans, it's not much of an issue.

Regardless of any other comments I would recommend if you use any oil additive that is not from the same company as your engine oil, that you check on it's exact contents, because some snake oils that have similar anti wear components to those already in the oil do cause long term trouble. Too much of something is definitely not good when it comes to additives, as it will often change the ph of the oil, cause deposits in the CAT or DPF and interfere with other oil additives in the way they function.

Liqui Moly are a great company and I only use their engine or transmission oils and Ceretec is a good product that should mix with other oils, as they don't contain it, but you have to remember that the LM chemical engineers will have tested Ceretec with their oils or checked for possible interactions, but if you mix any additive with an oil from another company, you are in effect making a long term experiment.

The special tests done in Germany are interesting, BUT they don't represent the conditions inside an engine and like the tests that Amsoil do, are fairly meaningless. If LM want to do a long term test they should give me a few cans free and I will try it with the LM Synthoil High Tech 5/40 I use and then if they pay my Blackstones UOA costs we can then get some real results, as I think it does work, but to what extent is difficult to quantify at present and I am not using it for the next oil change as it would confuse my UOA results, as I am extending the service interval and can only change one thing at a time, but after the next change I will give it a try.

If LM want to help their sales figures in the US, it would be good if they could send a batch of virgin oil samples for all their products to Blackstones and then add the results to their web site, so folks that do UOA do not have to guess at what is in the virgin oil when they are trying to interpret their UOA results. The initial TBN, Zinc and Moly (If used) are important figures that should be added to the data sheets on the LM web site, as although LM do answer questions sent to them about their different oils and additives, some folks never listen to the experts and just want to read the facts for themselves, but finding them is not easy.

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#2701577 - 08/01/12 07:59 AM Re: Liqui Moly Ceratec [Re: skyship]
skyship Offline


Registered: 06/09/12
Posts: 2071
Loc: Tettnang, Baden-Wurttemberg, G...
Just one correction about Ceretec causing possible spark plug fouling, is that I should have mentioned that the only engines that might be subject to additional spark plug fouling are those burning a lot of oil, from bad rings etc.
Ceramic compounds are very good electrical insulators and even small traces in the oil that leaves a carbon deposit on spark plugs will reduce the efficiency of the spark plug if it is not changed or cleaned in a timely manner.
This means it is a rare event and only a possible issue for petrol engines in very poor condition where there was probably plug fouling issue for some time.

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#2701609 - 08/01/12 08:40 AM Re: Liqui Moly Ceratec [Re: skyship]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21723
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: skyship
Just one correction about Ceretec causing possible spark plug fouling, is that I should have mentioned that the only engines that might be subject to additional spark plug fouling are those burning a lot of oil, from bad rings etc.
Ceramic compounds are very good electrical insulators and even small traces in the oil that leaves a carbon deposit on spark plugs will reduce the efficiency of the spark plug if it is not changed or cleaned in a timely manner.
This means it is a rare event and only a possible issue for petrol engines in very poor condition where there was probably plug fouling issue for some time.


So then it might not be such a good thing, even for vehicles that use a little oil. I was told by the technical staff of a company that produces and sells the ceramic add as well as MoS2 that it was not a good idea in automotive applications. They said MoS2 was a better choice. I guess it depends on who you want to believe.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#2702339 - 08/01/12 09:22 PM Re: Liqui Moly Ceratec [Re: demarpaint]
skyship Offline


Registered: 06/09/12
Posts: 2071
Loc: Tettnang, Baden-Wurttemberg, G...
If you need to add anti wear additives because your present oil has a low TBN or you are using some kind of supermarket dino oil that does not already contain a good balance of additives then Ceretec is a better choice. If you add too much Moly it upsets the way the different additives function.
In general terms Ceretec or ZDDP (Zinc based) additives can reduce cold start wear, whereas Moly based additives won't make much difference to cold start wear if a good quality oil with enough Zinc and a low cold viscosity is used. Moly tends to be more effectice at higher temperatures, but most engine oil additives are just snake oil and using them is not as effective as selecting a good oil in the first place, unless you have a specific problem, like cam lobe wear on the VW diesels that results from using oil with too low a Zinc content.
I am only thinking of using Ceretec because of my engines severe service stop start use where the cold or cool start wear is the critical factor.
I never listen to gossip, but just look at the facts and I will try Ceretec for one oil change only and base my long term decisions on UOA results only in combination with info from Liqui Moly and a few highly qualified experts.

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#2702521 - 08/02/12 05:29 AM Re: Liqui Moly Ceratec [Re: skyship]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21723
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: skyship

I never listen to gossip, but just look at the facts and I will try Ceretec for one oil change only and base my long term decisions on UOA results only in combination with info from Liqui Moly and a few highly qualified experts.


No gossip, I spoke to highly qualified experts, in fact they produce the raw materials used in the ceramic and moly additives, and did their own testing. They were the people that warned me about the plug issue, and stated moly was the better choice. It was certainly unbiased information, since they had no agenda. Once again opinions vary, let us know how it works for you.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#2703083 - 08/02/12 04:59 PM Re: Liqui Moly Ceratec [Re: demarpaint]
skyship Offline


Registered: 06/09/12
Posts: 2071
Loc: Tettnang, Baden-Wurttemberg, G...
Interesting they confirmed the possible plug fouling issue and in fact, they could be right as regards petrol engines, as my research and expertise is in diesels and Ceretec works better than Moly as regards cold start wear factors in a diesel.

The big factor with turbo diesels is how well the detergents perform in the oil, in combination with the base stock performance. Sludge formation or too high a viscosity figure near the end of the OCI can cause a lot more wear than low anti friction additives, unless you have a sensitive engine with design or production faults, like the VW cams that require an oil additive with a high Zinc content.
Does anyone have a VOA for Ceretec explaining the contents, as some chap claimed it had some Moly in it.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: skyship

I never listen to gossip, but just look at the facts and I will try Ceretec for one oil change only and base my long term decisions on UOA results only in combination with info from Liqui Moly and a few highly qualified experts.


No gossip, I spoke to highly qualified experts, in fact they produce the raw materials used in the ceramic and moly additives, and did their own testing. They were the people that warned me about the plug issue, and stated moly was the better choice. It was certainly unbiased information, since they had no agenda. Once again opinions vary, let us know how it works for you.

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#2706971 - 08/06/12 07:00 PM Re: Liqui Moly Ceratec [Re: eta]
Vincenzo_f Offline


Registered: 06/24/11
Posts: 60
Loc: Ottaviano, Italy
skyship but at the moment you have Ceratec into the engine? Have you an UOA?
_________________________
My car
Honda Civic FK3 | Fuchs Titan Supersyn F 5w30.

Previous cars:
Alfa Romeo 147 TS.
Fiat Punto ELX.

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#2710363 - 08/10/12 06:09 AM Re: Liqui Moly Ceratec [Re: eta]
kr_bitog Offline


Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 729
Loc: South East Asia
When I put Ceratec on my oil-burning engine, I can recognize the distinct smell from the exhaust fumes. However still monitoring if really have issue with the existing plug on the newer engine.

One thing I can feel is the engine does less engine braking after release the accelerator, and quieter.
Just wondering if SI-1 will help address the plug fouling if it really happens ?

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#2729885 - 08/30/12 04:22 PM Re: Liqui Moly Ceratec [Re: eta]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7226
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
I am bringing this back to see if anyone knows if this should be added to a warm/hot engine & oil, and then driven for a long while (like many moly, or ZDDP compounds are) in order to achieve maximum results, or if it does not matter?

Falcon; you seem to have a direct line to LM tech, have you heard anything about this? (It does not say ANYTHING on the bottle. frown )
_________________________
2000 Z28 1SC 6 speed 175K miles
Red Line 0W-40/Sustina 0W-20 (20/80 mix)
Fram Ultra filter
Synpower 75W-140/4oz. XL-3
Red Line D4 in the T56

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