2009 GSXR600 rotella vs motul

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Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Blenders blindly trust the specs from manufacturers since they have no way to verify.

Manufacturers do use special base oils that is not available to others. You cannot buy the base oil of the old Mobil 0W40, not sure about the current Visom.


Not true. Blindly trust? Please. No way to verify? What?

And the base oils Mobil uses, they sell.



There is no way that Amsoil can verify the actual chemical composition of the base oil that they buy. Amsoil does not have a lab nor can they hire someone to break down the chemical elements nor component ratio of all of their base stocks. For example, how would Amsoil know what they are getting is POLYALKYLENE SUCCINIC ACID, 1-5 R53 POLYAMINE DERIVATIVE (CAS 147880-09-9)? Or a compound represented by the formula:

R.sup.1 R.sup.2 N--C(X)S--(CR.sup.3 R.sup.4).sub.a Z (A-I)

wherein in Formula (A-I), R.sup.1, R.sup.2, R.sup.3 and R.sup.4 are independently hydrogen or hydrocarbyl groups, provided that at least one of R.sup.1 and R.sup.2 is a hydrocarbyl group; X is O or S; a is zero, 1 or 2; and Z is a hydrocarbyl group, a hetero group, a hydroxy hydrocarbyl group, an activating group, or a --(S).sub.b C(X)NR.sup.1 R.sup.2 group wherein b is zero, 1 or 2; provide that when a is 2, Z is an activating group; and when a is zero, Z can be an ammonium, amine or metal cation.

Amsoil relies on MSDS like everyone else.

If you don't know what the base oil is then how can you buy it? Mobil formulas are proprietary if not top secret so how would you know what it is to buy?
 
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Originally Posted By: azsynthetic

There is no way that Amsoil can verify the actual chemical composition of the base oil that they buy. Amsoil does not have a lab nor can they hire someone to break down the chemical elements nor component ratio of all of their base stocks. For example, how would Amsoil know what they are getting is POLYALKYLENE SUCCINIC ACID, 1-5 R53 POLYAMINE DERIVATIVE (CAS 147880-09-9)? Or a compound represented by the formula:

R.sup.1 R.sup.2 N--C(X)S--(CR.sup.3 R.sup.4).sub.a Z (A-I)

wherein in Formula (A-I), R.sup.1, R.sup.2, R.sup.3 and R.sup.4 are independently hydrogen or hydrocarbyl groups, provided that at least one of R.sup.1 and R.sup.2 is a hydrocarbyl group; X is O or S; a is zero, 1 or 2; and Z is a hydrocarbyl group, a hetero group, a hydroxy hydrocarbyl group, an activating group, or a --(S).sub.b C(X)NR.sup.1 R.sup.2 group wherein b is zero, 1 or 2; provide that when a is 2, Z is an activating group; and when a is zero, Z can be an ammonium, amine or metal cation.

Amsoil relies on MSDS like everyone else.

If you don't know what the base oil is then how can you buy it? Mobil formulas are proprietary if not top secret so how would you know what it is to buy?


With all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about. Amsoil does have a lab.

And yes Amsoil could easily tell the difference between your example organic long chain acid and amine. Wow.

AS if Amsoil buys their base oils blind........... Now we have heard everything on BITOG!

Yes I am sure Mobil is working on low cost base oils all the time. Does not mean they are superior in all ways, top secret or not.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Amsoil does have a lab.

And yes Amsoil could easily tell the difference between your example organic long chain acid and amine. Wow.

AS if Amsoil buys their base oils blind........... Now we have heard everything on BITOG!

Yes I am sure Mobil is working on low cost base oils all the time. Does not mean they are superior in all ways, top secret or not.


If Amsoil has a lab then I also have one in my basement. Here are some very basic questions:

1. Can Amsoil produce any base oil Group I - III?
2. Can Amsoil produce any Group IV base oil?
3. Can Amsoil produce any Group V base oil?

If the answer is no for all three then Amsoil does not have a research and development lab. What Amsoil has is a chemistry department that blends oil and test the final products for comformity to industry standards and OEM specs. Red Line, Bel Ray, Royal Purple, etc. have the same chemistry department setup.

How many patents does Amsoil have on base oils and/or additives? I am not talking about a blend formula, but the actual process and elemental composition of a base oil patent.

Amsoil does not test every single one of their base oil lots that they bought for elemental composition. They test them after they are blended against industry and OEM specs. Amsoil, Red Line, Maxima, etc. blends are very good but they can only be as good as the base oil that they buy from people that have a real base oil producing labs. Amsoil can not reverse engineer the base oil that they buy to see how or what it really is made from. Mobil owns an electron microscope at their facility in Houston, does Amsoil have one?
 
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic

If Amsoil has a lab then I also have one in my basement.


WHAT is that supposed to mean? Have you ever been to Amsoil? Frankly, you are embarrassing yourself with statements based on ignorance.

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Here are some very basic questions:

1. Can Amsoil produce any base oil Group I - III?
2. Can Amsoil produce any Group IV base oil?
3. Can Amsoil produce any Group V base oil?

If the answer is no for all three then Amsoil does not have a research and development lab. What Amsoil has is a chemistry department that blends oil and test the final products for comformity to industry standards and OEM specs. Red Line, Bel Ray, Royal Purple, etc. have the same chemistry department setup.


No Amsoil does not make base oils. But that does not mean Amsoil doesn't have an R&D lab.

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic

How many patents does Amsoil have on base oils and/or additives? I am not talking about a blend formula, but the actual process and elemental composition of a base oil patent.


I have no idea, but Amsoil doesn't produce base oils. So why would they have patents? But you have yet to prove their chemists don't have deep knowledge of base oils. You are trying, but you haven't come up with the proof.

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic

Amsoil does not test every single one of their base oil lots that they bought for elemental composition.


Wrong. You are one very confused pooch. Amsoil specifies the base oils, and they test upon receipt to assure conformance with their own requirements.

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic

They test them after they are blended against industry and OEM specs. Amsoil, Red Line, Maxima, etc. blends are very good but they can only be as good as the base oil that they buy from people that have a real base oil producing labs. Amsoil can not reverse engineer the base oil that they buy to see how or what it really is made from. Mobil owns an electron microscope at their facility in Houston, does Amsoil have one?


You just make stuff up. Electron microscopes are not used to reverse engineer base oils. Why did you throw that in there?
If Amsoil ever needs an electron microscope they could easily farm that out. Why buy a very expensive piece of equipment that would rarely be used?
 
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: BillyTheKid
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: Robenstein

I have seen Rotella work just as good as many racing oils in several applications.


All hearsay with no real data. The real proof is a championship and Rotella is nowhere to be seen. BTW, Shell does make specific motorcycle racing oils in several viscosity.


What racing are you referring to? I know of some 6 second street trim bikes in some drag racing classes around the country from a team who has even won the championship in years past. There is data there, although not a heavily known class or sport, but still real data.


Where is the data? Any professional sanctioned races should have the data of the winners and their equipments. Parking lot races do not applied.


Does racing at an NHRA sanctioned track count? If so, they don't ask our car what oil I am running. Sure some guys love to put the stickers on their car, but aside from that they never asked us. And no its not a street car, its an A fueled 32 Bantam altered. You complain about bench racers, I complain about internet know it alls.
 
Don't mess with him, he knows every oil run in every racers setup.

He can run or claim knowledge on what he wants. I know what works well for me for a fraction of the cost. No UOA neded for me, I check it with tear downs to really inspect.
 
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Amsoil does have a lab.

And yes Amsoil could easily tell the difference between your example organic long chain acid and amine. Wow.

AS if Amsoil buys their base oils blind........... Now we have heard everything on BITOG!

Yes I am sure Mobil is working on low cost base oils all the time. Does not mean they are superior in all ways, top secret or not.


If Amsoil has a lab then I also have one in my basement. Here are some very basic questions:

1. Can Amsoil produce any base oil Group I - III?
2. Can Amsoil produce any Group IV base oil?
3. Can Amsoil produce any Group V base oil?

If the answer is no for all three then Amsoil does not have a research and development lab. What Amsoil has is a chemistry department that blends oil and test the final products for comformity to industry standards and OEM specs. Red Line, Bel Ray, Royal Purple, etc. have the same chemistry department setup.

How many patents does Amsoil have on base oils and/or additives? I am not talking about a blend formula, but the actual process and elemental composition of a base oil patent.

Amsoil does not test every single one of their base oil lots that they bought for elemental composition. They test them after they are blended against industry and OEM specs. Amsoil, Red Line, Maxima, etc. blends are very good but they can only be as good as the base oil that they buy from people that have a real base oil producing labs. Amsoil can not reverse engineer the base oil that they buy to see how or what it really is made from. Mobil owns an electron microscope at their facility in Houston, does Amsoil have one?

"Injun Joe" and his buddy had a "lab" in which they made "Kickapoo Joy Juice". It was called the "Skunk Works". Lockheed later used the term in a less than official way. A "lab" can be almost anything.
 
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Originally Posted By: Pablo

No Amsoil does not make base oils. But that does not mean Amsoil doesn't have an R&D lab.

I have no idea, but Amsoil doesn't produce base oils. So why would they have patents? But you have yet to prove their chemists don't have deep knowledge of base oils. You are trying, but you haven't come up with the proof.

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic


Amsoil does not test every single one of their base oil lots that they bought for elemental composition.


Wrong. You are one very confused pooch. Amsoil specifies the base oils, and they test upon receipt to assure conformance with their own requirements.

You just make stuff up. Electron microscopes are not used to reverse engineer base oils. Why did you throw that in there?
If Amsoil ever needs an electron microscope they could easily farm that out. Why buy a very expensive piece of equipment that would rarely be used?


I will repeat this one more time. Amsoil does not test the base oils that they've bought for elemental composition. Amsoil only test them to assure conformance with Amsoil own requirements like you have said. As such, Amsoil does not know what they were given, only what the oils suppose to be able to perform. The reason Amsoil can not verify the elemental composition of the base oil is because they do not have a lab that can do it compared to Mobil. You can not do an elemental decomposition of an oil without an electron microscope.

Because they don't know what they were given, Amsoil is buying the base oil blind just like all the other blenders. Knowing what an oil can do is different than knowing what that oil actually made up of. If Mobil did not fess up about Visom in their 0W40, would anyone know?
 
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
You can not do an elemental decomposition of an oil without an electron microscope.


We'll just leave it for someone else to step in and verify if this is true. I'm done here.
 
Originally Posted By: Robenstein


Does racing at an NHRA sanctioned track count? If so, they don't ask our car what oil I am running. Sure some guys love to put the stickers on their car, but aside from that they never asked us. And no its not a street car, its an A fueled 32 Bantam altered. You complain about bench racers, I complain about internet know it alls.


Is it an NHRA sanctioned event or were you just using the track? The reason you were not asked because you were/are not the winner. Only the winners go into the record book. If you have an oil sticker on your winning vehicle (dream on) then your sponsor would have claimed the win and you get the bonus money. You do have sponsors right? Bench racers never get sponsored.
 
Yeah we were running Pennzoil (had a sticker) and sponsored by the local distributor and no it was not an NHRA event but an NHRA track. We have won on several occasions. Although the driver, my old man, has not driven in a couple years because he has been ill. Id like to think he knows what he is doing being a former G stock AHRA record MPH holder.

But as someone who has built engines I can attest oil makes very little difference in whether you win or not. It is more about building and tuning your equipment correctly.

But like most internet blow hards you are all about the brand. Good oil is good oil, and sometimes the ultra expensive stuff is overkill. You also do not even consider the marketing angle of oils. We have seen on this site several oils from companies that spend tons of money on marketing not hold up as well as less expensive brands.
 
Originally Posted By: Robenstein

But as someone who has built engines I can attest oil makes very little difference in whether you win or not. It is more about building and tuning your equipment correctly.


You just contradict yourselves. When you are racing to win EVERY little differences count. Why do you bother tuning your equipment if it was not for the little differences?

Read the topic of this post again, it is Rotella vs Motul and in the real world Motul wins hands down.
 
I ran Rotella 15w-40 HDEO in a 636 Ninja for a few years. No probems encountered. I also ran some Repsol 10w-40 in there. I don't think it makes a heck of a lot of difference. With any race/track day work you're not running an extended OCI and your not racing for some crazy world championship. I think you will be fine with anything within reason.
 
The oil is to protect the engine, not make power. Most oils will do the protection part. I don't buy into the whole "this oil makes x amount more HP" game. In bikes it is really mostly in the tune and suspension. I have seen people take power out of their setup then go faster.
 
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: Robenstein

But as someone who has built engines I can attest oil makes very little difference in whether you win or not. It is more about building and tuning your equipment correctly.


You just contradict yourselves. When you are racing to win EVERY little differences count. Why do you bother tuning your equipment if it was not for the little differences?

Read the topic of this post again, it is Rotella vs Motul and in the real world Motul wins hands down.


Not really when it comes to bracket racing, you aim for consistency. And again your opinion that oil that wins races ( cause once again it has nothing to do with the rest of the engine, transmission, rider, or just marketing/sponsorship) is best for a person that rides on the street is flawed logic plain and simple.
 
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
[And again your opinion that oil that wins races ( cause once again it has nothing to do with the rest of the engine, transmission, rider, or just marketing/sponsorship) is best for a person that rides on the street is flawed logic plain and simple.


Nope you are wrong again. No where did I say "cause once again it has nothing to do with the rest of the engine, transmission, rider, or just marketing/sponsorship". That is your words since you can't seem to stay on topic. Let me repeat myself one more time so you can get it.

MOTUL IS BETTER THAN ROTELLA IN EVERY WHICH WAY EXCEPT COST WHEN USED IN A 2009 GSXR600 for street or strip. The proof is in the numerous world championships that Rotella and you can only dream about.
 
Originally Posted By: BillyTheKid
The oil is to protect the engine, not make power. Most oils will do the protection part. I don't buy into the whole "this oil makes x amount more HP" game


If you are not a racer or an engine builder, you would not understand. SHELL makes two different motorcycle race oils depending on whether you want maximum power or maximum protection. Both are streetable like pretty much any motorcycle race oils. Unlike automotive race oil, the motorcycle race oil (i.e. 4T) needs to have detergent and dispersant due to the typical fuel dilution and wet clutch.
 
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Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: BillyTheKid
The oil is to protect the engine, not make power. Most oils will do the protection part. I don't buy into the whole "this oil makes x amount more HP" game


If you are not a racer or an engine builder, you would not understand. SHELL makes two different motorcycle race oils depending on whether you want maximum power or maximum protection. Both are streetable like pretty much any motorcycle race oils. Unlike automotive race oil, the motorcycle race oil (i.e. 4T) needs to have detergent and dispersant due to the typical fuel dilution and wet clutch.


Dude, you sound like a clown. Don't speak on what you don't know yourself. I have raced (drag raced) bikes a very long time and then stepped away from it a few years ago. Again, I don't care what you think or what you claim to know or what marketing HYPE you want to fall into. FACT - the oil is made really to protect the engine. Any other [censored] they spin is not factual. Do you want to even go on and play the game that you have tested all oils under the same exact conditions and bike numerous times with the same exact conditions and closed environment? I am betting YOU personally have not done this. Until this is done in plain sight of all public, the claims are all marketing. The humidity or even a few degrees temperature change could make more or less power on the same oil even!

Fact - I have seen people in my racing take A LOT of power out of their tune and go faster. Did the oil do that too? Should we think that way?

On my bike or racing I have done, I will gladly grab the cheaper oil and do just fine, and take into the spend on say Motul (at least $50 for approx 4 qt) and compare it to Rotella (actually saw it at WM last night for $12.97 approx 4 qt). That leaves me a lot of spare money to buy some racing fuel or even something else. Not once has my stuff blown up on that oil and I change it too frequently to justify spending top dollar. I have been around the game a long time and my good friend is the builder of many including me. I used to fall into the hype of the boutique stuff and it is not worth it anymore to me. I have seen garbage old Castrol SynTech many many years go keep an abused ZX-7 spotless with like new bearings. I have spun a bearing on some old expensive Torco back in the day. I have seen things blow up on Amsoil. I have seen me flatten out a cam lobe on Mobil 1. I can tell countless good or horror stories with almost any oils, but a lot of it is not because of the oil, actually all of them were probably not the fault of any oil.

So there are some hard facts to me. If you want to talk about all the marketing and wins and all that garbage, go ahead. But then we can all sing the Mobil song too! They seem to have quite a few wins themselves.
 
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Some people are set in their ways. Im done with this dude just like Pablo. You cannot convince someone that has drank the marketing kool aid sometimes.

I guess that the OCOD Fram must be truly awesome cause they have sponsored a lot of winning cars. LOL

I am going to go do something worth the time, like go ride my bike.
 
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