Chrysler changes the oil spec for 2013

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I'm beginning to think its more CAFE than what's best. If not why don't I have an option [while under warranty] to use 5W30 for severe use?


Like it was pointed out before, Toyota and Subaru do hint about that thicker oil option in their manuals.

However, i would hesitate calling 5W30 oils as thicker as it usually turns to something like 10W20 in short 1000-2000 miles (unless one uses ACEA A3 or boutique oils).

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I'm beginning to think its more CAFE than what's best. If not why don't I have an option [while under warranty] to use 5W30 for severe use?


Like it was pointed out before, Toyota and Subaru do hint about that thicker oil option in their manuals.

However, i would hesitate calling 5W30 oils as thicker as it usually turns to something like 10W20 in short 1000-2000 miles (unless one uses ACEA A3 or boutique oils).


I know Chrysler gives no other options, I haven't seen a Ford OM since 1988, they gave choices then. Under the Autobahn conditions I have no idea what a 20 grade oil would be beaten down too, but I'm pretty sure a 30 grade will still do better, shearing and all.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: Trav

The 20w is viewed with distain by most Germans and German manufacturers.


You may have noticed a whole lot of Americans are mighty suspicious of it too!

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

My Jeep only specs one grade of oil 5W20, and gives me no choices.
I'm beginning to think its more CAFE than what's best. If not why don't I have an option [while under warranty] to use 5W30 for severe use?

Because there is likely no scenerio where higher oil temp's will be allowed to occur. And if they can't occur there is no benefit of a heavier oil, just disadvantages.
There are cars, mostly performance cars that when thrashed at the track can go into limp mode were the rev's are limited and in severe cases the engine is shut down until the engine cools down.
I wouldn't be surprised if Chrysler doesn't have similar fail safe systems. Keep in mind Chrysler does spec' heavier oil, even 40wt oil for some of it's cars such as the SRT models. But the reason is clear, the high power output if sustained will cause very high oil temp's, as high as 300F.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

My Jeep only specs one grade of oil 5W20, and gives me no choices.
I'm beginning to think its more CAFE than what's best. If not why don't I have an option [while under warranty] to use 5W30 for severe use?

Because there is likely no scenario where higher oil temp's will be allowed to occur. And if they can't occur there is no benefit of a heavier oil, just disadvantages.
There are cars, mostly performance cars that when thrashed at the track can go into limp mode were the rev's are limited and in severe cases the engine is shut down until the engine cools down.
I wouldn't be surprised if Chrysler doesn't have similar fail safe systems. Keep in mind Chrysler does spec' heavier oil, even 40wt oil for some of it's cars such as the SRT models. But the reason is clear, the high power output if sustained will cause very high oil temp's, as high as 300F.




The scenario I gave wouldn't occur if an American shipped their 20 grade spec'd vehicle to Germany, and went balls to the wall, hours on end driving on the Autobahn? The limp mode would be dangerous I would think. I'm not trying to be confrontational but one size [5W20] in this example doesn't fit all. That is the point I'm trying to make here.

 

[edhackett]

It's CAFE. Caterham may be right about the protections being in place, but the single recommendation is CAFE. A manufacturer, by law, can only recommend the grade used to obtain certification. This is the weight recommended in the owner's manual and must also appear on the oil cap. Some manufacturers make a single recommendation, others like Subaru footnote the recommendation as to best fuel economy and make alternate recommendations for usage that will result in higher oil temperatures.

About those oil temperature protection schemes... wouldn't need them if the oil specified was capable of protecting the engine under all conditions it may be operated, would we?

Ed

 

[CATERHAM]

demarpaint I know you're not being confrontational and it's an honest question. The thing is, you can easily replicate the same constant WOT conditions here in the NA towing a large heavy trailer, on a very hot day, through the mountains on the east coast or west cost.
I've done it myself with a buddies F-150 towing an overloaded race car trailer with tons of maximum rev's in lower gears. I have no idea how hot the oil got but the truck has had a long life of similar abuse and it now has 250,000 miles on it and is going strong. The oil used is always PC 5W-20 dino changed usually every 5,000 miles.

When a OEM spec's an oil there is a huge safe margin associated with it. If one is really curious about how large that safety margin is install an oil pressure gauge.
But I will tell you this, lots of high rev's burns up not just a lot of gas but a lot of oil as well which one must be aware of.
If you're doing it a lot a heavier oil will reduce the high oil consumption.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
It's CAFE.
About those oil temperature protection schemes... wouldn't need them if the oil specified was capable of protecting the engine under all conditions it may be operated, would we?

Ed

Whether CAFE has any influence or not (I say it doesn't) but that has been discussed to death in the following thread if you want to get into it:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2650246&page=4

Besides CAFE doesn't apply to trucks and 20wt oil is spec'd for many domestic trucks.
Oil and coolant temperature protection schemes, as you put it, has to do with extreme conditions that won't be encountered in normal use for 99.99999% of users.
It makes no sense to specify a heavier than necessary oil with all the disadvantages associated with that if it's usefulness would only apply 0.0000001% of the time.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Besides CAFE doesn't apply to trucks and 20wt oil is spec'd for many domestic trucks.


It does apply to all trucks, SUVs, and minivans under 8500 lbs GVWR. It is proposed that by 2014 all trucks will fall under CAFE.

Ed

 

[[RT] ProjUltraZ]

but really we're getting worked up about something that's only a 10% decrease in visc and HTHS, 30s can shear down nearly to this so i wouldn't be worried in V6 or smallr. One could say that specing 5W-30 in all the 4 and V6s for all these years was overkill when all cars even the Vette were specd same.

but 30 to 40 that's a jump that would seem like a 70wt oil if that scale was like the visc difference of 20 to 30...but it's not based on operating visc

 

[95busa]

This conversation is very irrelevant for 99.9% of drivers. Yes- extreme use will degrade anything, to include the engine itself. Run stuff for 6 hours at or near the redline as one of these gentlemen suggested, I guarantee you will break something in the powertrain before you have any concerns about oil breakdown. What the heck were you driving at WOT for six hours anyway? My old 96 Vette (LT4- six speed) would do 170+MPH. The only things on four wheels i know that do six hours like that are on NASCAR- and those things are not a single thing production based from front to back.

Another reason this is wasted electons... The autobahn comparison is IRRELEVANT- all of these vehicles have limiters, and NOBODY has cracked Dodge's ECM programming from 2011 and up, not that half of these vehicles will come close to redline...example- dodge grand caravan RT, six speed transmission, aerodynamics like a whale. Will NEVER pull redline in sixth gear, or even close to it, aerodynamics and limiters will catch it before it gets close, same for the Wrangler, and I suspect the Charger and Challenger are in the same boat.

Conclusion- 5w-20 is more efficient than 5w-30 and for the driving style these vehicles are capable of, is functionally identical for wear purposes. They run 5w-20 in 2500 Hemi Rams pulling 8,000 lbs.....as one guy stated- much more severe. They are about to put the 3.6 in the new generation Rams, probably using 5w-20 also. That application will be far more taxed than a passenger car. The AUTOBAHN stuff IS ABSOLUTELY IRRELEVANT----mental masturbation if you ask this guy.

 

[Norm Olt]

"...if you ask this guy."

Beats me?

Cheers!

 

[95busa]

read: waste of time

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Keep in mind Chrysler does spec' heavier oil, even 40wt oil for some of it's cars such as the SRT models. But the reason is clear, the high power output if sustained will cause very high oil temp's, as high as 300F.

Read you own post for petes sake. You are making my points for me.
If they spec'd 20w instead they wouldn't have to worry about 300 degree oil temps. you said...
Quote:
That's an oil temp' virtually impossible to reach in any vehicle for which a 20wt oil is spec'd including driving flat out on the autobahn.


Go ahead and twist yourself out of those words YOUR OWN WORDS!
You'll thing of some spin.

 

[antiqueshell]

What I find amusing is that those obsessed with xw-20 seem [censored] bent on preferring that the consumer doesn't have the choice to use a xw-30 oil.

I'm all for following the auto manufacturers recommendations during the time the car is under warranty but in special conditions or out of warranty I would be much more comfortable with a 5w30 for any of my daily drivers which are mundane mid 90s models (Honda Accord and VW Golf )4 cylinders.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
Keep in mind Chrysler does spec' heavier oil, even 40wt oil for some of it's cars such as the SRT models. But the reason is clear, the high power output if sustained will cause very high oil temp's, as high as 300F.

Read you own post for petes sake. You are making my points for me.
If they spec'd 20w instead they wouldn't have to worry about 300 degree oil temps. you said...
Quote:
That's an oil temp' virtually impossible to reach in any vehicle for which a 20wt oil is spec'd including driving flat out on the autobahn.


Go ahead and twist yourself out of those words YOUR OWN WORDS!
You'll thing of some spin.



Every time I'm comfortable with the 20 grade oil, you nail it with some hard to answer questions. I find myself asking again and again, is the mfg out for what is best for the engine, or what's best for CAFE?

 

[tommygunn]

As before, all threads about 20 weight degenerate into people complaining about CAFE.

Is there a way to know when an update is posted in a thread that isn't another person complaining that there is a conspiracy with CAFE and that 20 weight is bad for all cars or something other then to appeal to CAFE?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: tommygunn
As before, all threads about 20 weight degenerate into people complaining about CAFE.

Is there a way to know when an update is posted in a thread that isn't another person complaining that there is a conspiracy with CAFE and that 20 weight is bad for all cars or something other then to appeal to CAFE?


There is no way to know when an update is posted in a thread that isn't another person complaining........... you'll have to read through it unfortunately. One thing for sure the way I see it, Chrysler's recent change to a 20 grade oil for the Pentastar engine was prompted by something. Can you pick what it was? I can't and as far as I can tell from this discussion no one else can either. Was the 20 grade better for the Pentastar engine than the originally spec'd 30 grade, or did CAFE have a hand in it? Lots of good opinions no facts.

What I learned from this thread was whatever oil the engine mpg was tested with is the oil that has to be spec'd on the fill cap and the OM, and only a few companies make mention of times when an oil other than what's in the book or on the cap can be used. Most others are one size fits all.

 

[tommygunn]

By something, lets see, they tested it and it turns out to be fine so they started recommending it, like every other manufacturer has been lately (or even back spec'ing), with tons of testing to show its fine and likely gets to operating temperature faster and flows faster affording better lubrication?

Oh well. Enjoy the arguement.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I find myself asking again and again, is the mfg out for what is best for the engine, or what's best for CAFE?


Although this doesn't exactly answer your question, we do have to remember all the griping that came about when 10w-30 became widespread, that it was a fuel economy conspiracy and our engines would never survive.

That's not to say I'm anxious to try 0w-20 in my G37 or F-150, either. But, fuel economy concerns and engine durability are not mutually exclusive, either.