is the main ingredient of Fuel Power PIB/polyisobutylene?

[bigpaulo]

OK, perhaps MolaKule (kule moniker, btw) is privy to what's in FP.

> PIB's make great oil thickeners and viscosity
> improvers.

In this instance, that's about as useful to me as stating "My cat's breath smells like cat food." (- Ralph Wiggum)

I'll ask directly... Can PIB's (or other ingredients not commonly found in pump gas) be used to increase the combustion efficiency of gasoline?

I've read on these forums that FP increases the specific energy of gasoline (that's what I'm calling the energy per unit weight)... however it's done, does it accomplish this in the same way as Viscon claims to, i.e. not by actually increasing the energy value of the gasoline, but by improving the combustion process efficiency?

[ November 19, 2003, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: bigpaulo ]

 

[crashz]

Ahem -

Fellow Bostonian! For the record having a binder or thickener in your gas tank seems like a bad idea. Makes more work for the fuel pump and could wear out injectors faster.

I'm sure your comments were jokingly sarcastic to Molekule, but please remember that he is one of the top resources on this site and knows EVERYTHING about tribology. Plus he takes time out to try and answer everybodies questions. He knows what PIB is and the ingredients of FP. Due to proprietary rules and regs, he cannot divulge the ingredients. There are people (companies)on this site that could benefit monitarily if those products' ingredients where publicly released. Sorry to sound like a total pr!ck, but please give Molekule the respect he deserves. If my comments were made in error, please let me know and I will apologize.

 

[bigpaulo]

Crashz, no problem... I just like Ralph Wiggum

Actually, in the few short days that I've been browsing these forums, I'm impressed with Molakule's general knowledge on all things lubricating. I just felt like he was being a little slippery by changing the subject

And if we can't poke fun at each other (with respect - Godfather), what's the use, eh?

Believe me, I respect intellectual property more than most, and understand the implications of trade secrets... but it's not exactly a trade secret when you can read all about Viscon on the internet, and also read that it's most likely a UHMW PIB (which, I've read, is very soluable in gasoline at effective levels, so I don't think it's a gumming up injectors problem).

Let's talk more generally... why don't major gasoline companies put additives in their gasoline that would increase fuel efficiency, reduce emmissions, promote engine health and cleanliness, and get people to buy less gasoline? Oh, right... sorry...

Molakule, keep up the good work! I enjoy reading your posts and replies. If you're not at liberty to talk about this subject generally, just give me a

and I'll understand! Otherwise, please spill some more of that big, juicy brain!

 

[MolaKule]

Thanks Crashz.

Bigpaulo,

Perhaps a less aggressive questioning and a clarification of your question at the beginning would have been more appropriate.

I was not familiar with the product name you mentioned until I associated it with the parent company. I am very familiar with the fuel anti-misting technology used by the FAA and other concerns for jet fuel. Various forms of PIB's and their concentrations were used to reduce the misting of fuel sprayed from fuel tanks during crashes, so as to reduce the rate of burning and the spread of flame.

Polyisobutylenes or polybutenes, are synthetic hydrocarbons made by taking the C2 naptha liquids (butene monomers rich in isobutylene) from the refinery and reacting them with propylene oxides to form PIB's. These liquids are clear white and come in many viscosities. It is in essence a polymer or copolymer. PIB's are miscible and compatible with almost every fluid with the exception of PAG's and silicones.

Most likely the Viscon PIB's are what we call the "Polybutene 07" cuts which are 12.1 cSt at 100 C. These same cuts, BTW are also used for 2-cycle oils to reduce smoke in the exhaust and to increase lubricity. In terms of burning, PIB's leave no residue, another plus.

Some of the heavier polybutenes such as "Polybutene 5 and 10's" are used as viscosity index improvers and thickeners in PCMO's and gear oils (viscosity of 103 and 225 cSt respectively).

"Phosphosulferized" polybutenes are used for gear lubes and heavy industrial oils.

The PIB's in fuel would act as binders of fuel molecules until heated above 250 C, at which time the polymer 'unzipps" and decomposes. The result would be a slower burning fuel molecule such that the flame front in the cylinder spreads more slowly and more evenly, very similar to the action of MMT (Outlaw) and other octane improvers. In addition, the PIB's would act as fuel injector lubricators.

So PIB's are nothing new, but like most other useful fluids, they are finding more applications for them.

[ November 19, 2003, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[bigpaulo]

I've read on other forums about a product called Viscon, which uses small amounts of UHMW (ultra high molecular weight?) polyisobutylene (PIB).

The way it supposedly works is that it changes the physical properties of fuel droplets, such that heavier and lighter fuel molecules clump together, and the ensuring air/fuel mixture burns more efficiently.

So, anyone here know if Fuel Power is just another brand of PIB dissolved in a gas-friendly solvent?

 

[MolaKule]

FP is NOT PIB. The ingredients are proprietary.

PIB's make great oil thickeners and viscosity improvers.

 

[crashz]

My apologies bigpaulo! And again

In short gasoline suppliers mix fuels to minimum standards. These standards (as far as I've been told) are met at the refineries and distributors, rarely tested at the actual pump. With transportation, possible water contamination, scale in the tanks, there are many ways that fuel quality can be effected.

In the northeast, contractors (like my father) make a good living by removing old gas station tanks. If they don't leak, then all that moisture in the tanks has no where to go. You wouldn't believe the scale and rust and garbage in some tanks I've seen! As well as a thick layer of sediment on the bottom, the contents of which only God knows.

So imgine all that garbage and water mixed with a fuel that only meets minimum standard.

 

[bigpaulo]

Molakule, thanks for the extra info!

MMT-containing Outlaw acts similarly, eh? Cool! I'll have to try it sometime. The only OTC gasoline additive product I've found that is said to have PIB in it is X1R, which I finally saw at my local Walmart this past weekend.

You said that PIB's burn without leaving any residue? Sounds like a great attribute for a viscosity improver! Unless, of course, the PIB is converted into some other, less-clean molecules in some, perhaps, non-combustion related process (e.g. high temperature exposure in the presence of some catalyzing (sp?) compound or element).

Crashz, I would believe the crud that accumulates and develops inside gas station tanks. Do you change your car(s)' fuel filters at recommended intervals, or sooner?

[ November 20, 2003, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: bigpaulo ]

 

[crashz]

My manual says to change the filter every 15k. Since its a good size filter I change every 10k. I cut one open after 15k and found a pretty even amount of scum covering the element.

On a side note, I've noticed that small amounts (3-4oz.) of Lucas UCL seems to improve my mileage. Its a thick oily liquid, which has me wondering what is in it. Could it be that Polybutene 07 or PIB? Its working pretty well to stop the light pinging in my truck and aslo boosts mileage by about 0.5 mpg.

 

[Pontual]

IMO it's TETA

 

[andyd]

I found BITOG looking for info on Viscon and PIB. I ran through a qt of it and never noticed any gain. That was in '04 and I've been here since. Molakule and his knowledge are one of the reasons.

 

[CentAmDL650]

Most TC-W3 marine/outboard oil for 2 cycle premix/ injection contains 1/2 - 2% polyisobutylene (PIB). The majority of vehicle in those turns out to be N-Alkane in the C 12-15 range (kerosene). If Molakule's 12 year old claims about PIB's properties are correct, it may explain why some report smoother operation, (slightly) better mileage, and what appears to be improved octane from their fuel.