Blending CF-PCMO w/ HDEO for light duty diesels

[T-Stick]

For light duty 4 cylinder CRDs such as is commonly designed in Europe, is there any advantage to blending (50/50) an HDEO with a CF rated 5w-40 to get some better diesel additives to address soot (which a CF does not really do well) while the CF PCMO will keep the oil from being as heavy for cold starts and gas mileage.

I realize that either a CF PCMO or an HDEO could be used satisfactorily, but for the sake of minutae (which BITOG specializes in) could this not potentially be a good approach--pending confirmation with an UOA that the blend works well together.

Thoughts for the sake of discussion?

 

[LeakySeals]

Not sure about mixing, but Rotella T6 5w40 full syn is on the shelf at Walmart. My little 1.8L I4 Toyota corolla engine loved it better than PCMO. Solved a number of its ailments.

Check out this amazing UOA
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2690009#Post2690009

 

[scurvy]

There is no benefit to this, in fact you will be hampering the HDEO's ability to keep soot in suspension by doing so. The CF specification is worthless & obsolete. IIRC anyone may put that on their oil without any sort of certification or testing whatsoever.

Many diesel-rated oils are available as 5w30 or 0w30. Those are plenty light enough for startup protection, as are most 5w40s which are more typical in diesel-rated oils.

I would never condone this approach. CJ-4 worked wonders in my two TDIs; I'm sure similar gains could be had with ACEA Bx oils.

 

[T-Stick]

I am wondering why The Euro oil formulas such as Mobil 1 0w-40 and Pennzoil Ultra 5w-40 are still are only carrying a CF rating and the Euro ACEA ratings for their light duty diesels.

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: T-Stick
I am wondering why The Euro oil formulas such as Mobil 1 0w-40 and Pennzoil Ultra 5w-40 are still are only carrying a CF rating and the Euro ACEA ratings for their light duty diesels.


My unsubstantiated guess is they are making it to a European recipe, possibly even using additives from their Euro suppliers. 0w40 is very popular with European marques, especially VWAG vehicles. I've heard suspicion that Pennzoil Ultra 5w40 is basically rebottled Shell Helix Ultra 5w40.

 

[T-Stick]

These CF/ACEA oils still don't have much ability to address soot from an EGR and yet they are tailored to meet the engine specs. I guess another way to ask a similar question is whether there are any benefits in a CF/ACEA rated Euro PCMO that is not typically found in an HDEO. If so, this is why am asking if a blend with HDEO is benefical to accommodate both the engine spec and the soot.

 

[m37charlie]

Originally Posted By: T-Stick
These CF/ACEA oils still don't have much ability to address soot from an EGR and yet they are tailored to meet the engine specs.


Doyou know that for a fact? Have you gone through the ACEA A3/B4 tests and failed to find tests that address soot induced thickening and wear? Actually, they are in the test sequence. The OM646LA and DV4TD tests address these issues.

Charlie

 

[T-Stick]

I should have perhaps limited my comment to the API CF rating. However if the ACEA ratings addressed soot to the extent that an EGR can introduce it I would have thought these oils would have gained a higher than CF API rating that is designed to handle soot introduced by an EGR.

In other words if the Euro formulations don't meet the higher diesel ratings since CF and the engine has an EGR, would you not want some of the protection offered by a higher rated API oil?

 

[scurvy]

As mentioned, ACEA test sequences DO rate oils for soot loading & EGR usage.

Originally Posted By: T-Stick
... if the ACEA ratings addressed soot to the extent that an EGR can introduce it I would have thought these oils would have gained a higher than CF API rating that is designed to handle soot introduced by an EGR.


Apples and oranges. The oils are already approved to (let's say) ACEA B4. Why would they bother getting CJ-4 approval as well?

Anybody can slap CF on their oil without any testing. It's an ancient, obsolete spec that the API stopped using at the end of 2010 - see CF discontinuation letter for more details.

I still don't understand what you're trying to accomplish with mixing HDEO & PCMOs. There are plenty 'light' viscosity HDEOs out there that work just fine in diesel engines... I ran Elf Evolution CRV 0w30 for 10k miles in my Golf as well as VW (Castrol) Longlife III 5w30 for another 30k miles.

 

[T-Stick]

Are you saying an ACEA B4 approved oil will handle soot as well as an API approved CJ-4 oil?

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: T-Stick
Are you saying an ACEA B4 approved oil will handle soot as well as an API approved CJ-4 oil?


No, nor did I draw a comparison between the two standards.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

The ACEA HDEO classification is designated with an "E" (E4,6,7,9) and the requirements are sometimes similar to Bx. Soot loading is not one of them. I would gather that it's because the OCI is 2-3x longer on HDEO applications.

2010 specs are.newest and 2012 will be out early.next.year.

 

[T-Stick]

Originally Posted By: scurvy
Originally Posted By: T-Stick
Are you saying an ACEA B4 approved oil will handle soot as well as an API approved CJ-4 oil?


No, nor did I draw a comparison between the two standards.


My point was that the soot loading equivalent of CJ-4, as per Cummins, is the E9. Cummins report This is verified also with the ACEA description of E9 ACEA ratings

Based on this I cannot see where a B/4 oil would handle soot as well as a CJ-4 oil.

The specified Euro oil for a light duty diesel may provide some desirable characteristics for a small Euro diesel while a CJ-4 oil may provide better soot handling characteristices for the closed EGR systems--hence my question if there is any value in considering a blend of an A/3-B/4 Euro formulated oil with a CJ-4 oil.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Iirc all euro diesel light duty have EGR. On a 10k mile OCI soot loading isn't an issue. Check the UOA's. I don't think you're gaining anything by mixing. Now there are some oils which have both Bx/Ex ratings. M1 Delo 5w30.

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: T-Stick
Based on this I cannot see where a B/4 oil would handle soot as well as a CJ-4 oil.


Have you compared the specs for B4 to E9 as far as soot loading capability?

Originally Posted By: T-Stick
hence my question if there is any value in considering a blend of an A/3-B/4 Euro formulated oil with a CJ-4 oil.


Any modern (14 years old and newer) European-style diesel engine has EGR and they have been able to run OCIs up to 50k kilometers on ACEA B-spec and/or manufacturer spec oils.

Does CJ-4 offer additional soot loading capacity over B4? I don't know, but for the sake of discussion let's say yes.
Do you need the additional soot loading capacity? If your engine is in good shape, no, I don't think so. You did need the additional soot capacity, European diesels wouldn't be able to run such long oil change intervals.

If you've got half an oil change worth of ACEA Bx oil and half CJ-4 oil, go nuts, it's your car. But I don't think you're going to get the best of both worlds by blending them, which is what you seem to be trying to accomplish.

 

[Shannow]

Nissan state that the warranty is voided on their turbodiesels if any oil "higher" graded than CF-4 is used.

CF seems to get by OK, as per my UOA some time ago.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post588468

 

[Garak]

In a case like that, Shannow, though, one would be best served by seeing if such an animal is still blended by a reputable distributor. RP still keeps a CF rating on their 10w-40, though I believe they discontinued it on other grades. Obviously, 5w-20 wouldn't be CF, and their 15w-40 has the latest specification.

Esso used to and some Coops still may blend some legacy HDEOs. Since such a specification is obsolete and not officially licensed by the API anymore, one has to trust that the oil company isn't slapping an obsolete grade on there willy nilly.

Does Nissan market an appropriate oil for such turbodiesels in the markets where they're driven? Does M1 0w-40 have an API compression ignition rating? How about GC?

 

[Shannow]

All the usual suspects are CF down here.

Nissan allows B3 (and prefers Jaso DH-1) for the European market, and I have seen reference to Nissan recommending B4 in Oz, but not seen the bulletin.

 

[T-Stick]

Quote:
Does CJ-4 offer additional soot loading capacity over B4? I don't know, but for the sake of discussion let's say yes.


According to the Cummins report I posted the CJ-4 and E9 oils are designed for additional soot loading and extended drain intervals with that increased soot loading. I would think that Cummins engineers would know.

Whether the additional soot loading capability is utilized in a small light duty diesel may be open for discussion; but the ability to handle soot and keep it in suspension while providing superior lubricating and cleaning properties is a good characteristic.

The fact that Euro and many light duty diesels don't specifiy HDEO may be for the purpose of having a lighter lubricant for tighter tolerances, faster starts, improved economy, and faster cold weather flow. Here is a good thread on the differences. ACEA B vs. E

Again, I am not stuck on any position, I'm putting this out there for discussion. Most people choose a Euro type oil or an HDEO for light duty diesels. I'm asking if a blend has merit, providing those two lubricants show good UOAs together.

 

[Shannow]

Different engine manufacturers do stuff "differently"...

Posted this a while back...

Depending on how they view specific design elements, they require the lubricant to "step up to the plate" on another.

Nissan have told me that with mine, they don't want dispersants keeping the soot circulating through the valve train, and a less dispersive oil (i.e. not CG-4 and onwards) allows the soot to clump, and get caught.