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#2826644 - 12/07/12 01:59 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: Nickdfresh]
turbokick Offline


Registered: 09/10/12
Posts: 50
Loc: East Of Heaven
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
How does anyone pretend to know the composition of Mobil 1 0W-40? It may indeed contain group III+, but I bet a tidy sum that it's at least a blend of III+ and IV...


Mobil 1 themselves confessed some time ago that group 4 and 5 basestock are too expensive to produce, that's why they replace them with a cheeper product invented by them called Visom

IMO Mobil 1 nowadays is a group 3 ¨synthetic¨, long way far from Motul 300V series


Edited by turbokick (12/07/12 02:02 AM)
_________________________
BMW 323ti compact - Motul 300V Competition 15W-50
Motul Products in LSD, tranny, brakes

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#2826649 - 12/07/12 02:27 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: 04SVT]
turbokick Offline


Registered: 09/10/12
Posts: 50
Loc: East Of Heaven
Originally Posted By: 04SVT
Originally Posted By: robertcope
Originally Posted By: turbokick

It's your car man, you can use whatever you want. If you think that holding an engine near the rev. limiter for hours in a 40C summer day is the same with a 7$ per cuart oil and with a 20$ per cuart one, it's your choice.


I do drive in the summer here in Texas, where it can easily be 100F+ ambient and well over 120F+ on the asphalt. So far my motors have all held together just fine. I've got about 30K track miles on this one.

You clearly stated that the difference was big and noticeable. What should I be feeling for when I'm out on the track this weekend?

robert


Turbokick, I'm curious of the answer to this as well. I've never notice a real world difference between the two...and I'm a bit inclined to believe I have an engine that produces quite a bit more power than 95% of the cars on a road coarse track.



Well, I sincerely can not know what you should feel when beeing on the track, if in 30K ¨track miles¨ you dont't have it clear, there's absolutely no way for me to know it.

In all those hard 30K ¨track miles¨ never happened to you when putting some cheep semi-synthetic/hydrocrack oil in your engine, after some HARD drive (constant high rpm, reaching the rev. limiter oftenly), to hear your hydraulic lifters (if your car has them) ticking? I and many more people (everyone that tracks his car) have experienced such a phenomenon at least one time in our ¨track life¨. It is due to the fact that cheep oil when getting hot lose pressure and doesn't lubricate well enough.
The consequences of such a process (driving in high rpm. with low oil pressure) can be catastrophic for your engine.

One of the very few oils with which I haven't experienced lifter ticking after some track time is Motul 300V (there were some others, but all of them were in that price-range, and inspite of all weren't so good as Motul 300V).

Now, as I told you, it's your car, and you service it as you want.


Edited by turbokick (12/07/12 02:37 AM)
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BMW 323ti compact - Motul 300V Competition 15W-50
Motul Products in LSD, tranny, brakes

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#2826667 - 12/07/12 05:10 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: turbokick]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 8993
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: turbokick
Mobil 1 themselves confessed some time ago that group 4 and 5 basestock are too expensive to produce, that's why they replace them with a cheeper product invented by them called Visom

VISOM only replaces certain types of PAO. It replaces them not only because it's cheaper, but because it performs very similarly in the ways that matter.

Also, Mobil started adding heavy PAO around the same time as they introduced VISOM, and heavy PAO is expensive.

Also, VISOM is several years old by now, and in that time Mobil 1 products have been reformulated several times.

Most importantly, all they said about VISOM is basically "hey, here's this new stuff that we can use to replace PAO sometimes." They still haven't actually explained exactly what any of their products was made of at the time, and they certainly haven't said anything along those lines since then.
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2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#2826696 - 12/07/12 06:43 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: d00df00d]
bluesubie Offline


Registered: 08/04/03
Posts: 1821
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
They still haven't actually explained exactly what any of their products was made of at the time, and they certainly haven't said anything along those lines since then.

IMO, this is what people need to remember about any oil. Just because we have information that a certain oil uses certain base stocks, it doesn't mean that the company uses 100% of those base stocks.

And some people think that an MSDS is an all inclusive list of ingredients in oil but that just isn't the case.

-Dennis
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#2826707 - 12/07/12 07:03 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: d00df00d]
turbokick Offline


Registered: 09/10/12
Posts: 50
Loc: East Of Heaven
[u]
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: turbokick
Mobil 1 themselves confessed some time ago that group 4 and 5 basestock are too expensive to produce, that's why they replace them with a cheeper product invented by them called Visom

VISOM only replaces certain types of PAO. It replaces them not only because it's cheaper, but because it performs very similarly in the ways that matter.

Also, Mobil started adding heavy PAO around the same time as they introduced VISOM, and heavy PAO is expensive.

Also, VISOM is several years old by now, and in that time Mobil 1 products have been reformulated several times.

Most importantly, all they said about VISOM is basically "hey, here's this new stuff that we can use to replace PAO sometimes." They still haven't actually explained exactly what any of their products was made of at the time, and they certainly haven't said anything along those lines since then.


Sorry man, but actually you add nothing to this thread with this post and you actually don't disprove any statement I did.

I said that Mobil 1 introduced Visom because PAO was more expensive and you admit it in your post.

I said that the introduction of Visom was some years ago (not yesterday, for sure) and you repeat it.

It's not true that Mobil 1 introduced Visom in the same time when they introduced PAO. M1 was a group 4/5 supreme quality oil untill they changed their formulations back in 2005...

It was said clear enough by Mobil 1 themselves, some years ago, that they introduce Visom for being cheeper than PAO and for giving ALMOST the same level of performance, but they never said it was really as good as PAO (and my experience doesn't show it really is), only that it has symilar characteristics and be way cheeper, which does't incline me to think that it is as good as PAO itself.

I don't say Mobil 1 is a bad oil, I only say that there is no fair way to compare it with a true synthetic, top-end racing ester lubricant like Motul 300V, M1 is good for what it is, but it's not a first class racing oil like 300V and it is ridiculous to compare them.
Do you intent to convince me that a product that costs 3 times less than other product can be equally good, because if you do it I go out.


Edited by turbokick (12/07/12 07:07 AM)
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BMW 323ti compact - Motul 300V Competition 15W-50
Motul Products in LSD, tranny, brakes

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#2826730 - 12/07/12 07:30 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: turbokick]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 8993
Loc: PA
Sorry. I guess the details were confusing. Here's a super-simple version of what I said.

1. You said that VISOM replaced group 4 and 5 base stocks. VISOM only replaced some group 4 base stocks.
2. You said VISOM took over because it's cheaper. There were more reasons than that.
3. You implied that Mobil 1 0w-40 isn't made with group 4 and 5 base stocks. There is no evidence for that.

As for convincing you of anything, that's not my intention. Least of all do I want to talk you out of 300V, which is a fine product. And frankly, in the end, I really don't care what your opinion is. I care about the quality of information on the website, and I like engaging in debates that get me to test my own views and my ability to articulate them.
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2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
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#2826770 - 12/07/12 08:10 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: d00df00d]
turbokick Offline


Registered: 09/10/12
Posts: 50
Loc: East Of Heaven
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Sorry. I guess the details were confusing. Here's a super-simple version of what I said.

1. You said that VISOM replaced group 4 and 5 base stocks. VISOM only replaced some group 4 base stocks.
2. You said VISOM took over because it's cheaper. There were more reasons than that.
3. You implied that Mobil 1 0w-40 isn't made with group 4 and 5 base stocks. There is no evidence for that.

As for convincing you of anything, that's not my intention. Least of all do I want to talk you out of 300V, which is a fine product. And frankly, in the end, I really don't care what your opinion is. I care about the quality of information on the website, and I like engaging in debates that get me to test my own views and my ability to articulate them.



1. You even help me then, I also know that Visom replaced only group 4 basestocks, then I think it's better even not to mention some group 5 in the whole picture (if it's expensive for you to put some PAO in your products, how can we expect some esters?)
2. Mobil 1 only stated this one (being Visom more easy and cheep to achieve), for sure this is the main reason for Visom's introduccion and not the performance of their oils itself.
3. Here you contradict yourself, read your post.


Edited by turbokick (12/07/12 08:13 AM)
_________________________
BMW 323ti compact - Motul 300V Competition 15W-50
Motul Products in LSD, tranny, brakes

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#2826783 - 12/07/12 08:29 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: d00df00d]
turbokick Offline


Registered: 09/10/12
Posts: 50
Loc: East Of Heaven
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Sorry.

As for convincing you of anything, that's not my intention. Least of all do I want to talk you out of 300V, which is a fine product. And frankly, in the end, I really don't care what your opinion is. I care about the quality of information on the website, and I like engaging in debates that get me to test my own views and my ability to articulate them.


I only enterd in this thread because some people said they will always take M1 0W-40 over Motul 300V 0W-40 and I think that's ridiculous.
It's clear that you won't change my mind, nor is mine intention to change yours, just saw something unlogic and rare IMO and reacted.

My experience isn't based on internet debates, but on real life experience. Frankly I don't care of what your opinion is neither, just love the truth and can't tolerate lies fed by old time legends and patriotic [censored].
_________________________
BMW 323ti compact - Motul 300V Competition 15W-50
Motul Products in LSD, tranny, brakes

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#2826834 - 12/07/12 09:16 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: turbokick]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25680
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: turbokick


1. You even help me then, I also know that Visom replaced only group 4 basestocks, then I think it's better even not to mention some group 5 in the whole picture (if it's expensive for you to put some PAO in your products, how can we expect some esters?)


That's quite the unfounded extrapolation. Because a company is willing to substitute some of their PAO base for their proprietary Group III+ base oil in certain applications, that automatically means they are cheapening the product on the whole, removing anything expensive from the mix like Esters or AN's?

Quote:
2. Mobil 1 only stated this one (being Visom more easy and cheep to achieve), for sure this is the main reason for Visom's introduccion and not the performance of their oils itself.
3. Here you contradict yourself, read your post.


No.

VISOM was introduced as a stop-gap. XOM had (has?) intentions on changing out some of their PAO bases for GTL when it was readily available in their supply chain. GTL was supposed to be significantly less expensive to produce, have extremely low volatility and match PAO in performance.

The paper you are thinking of with reference to Mobil's implementation of VISOM came out in 2003. Here is a quote from it:

Originally Posted By: ExxonMobil
"Wax is wax, and isomerized wax is essentially the same stuff," Cox said. "It doesn't matter where it comes from." Made from waxy feedstocks and using the same catalyst systems as GTL will use, Visom will provide valuable experience in formulating with GTL-type base stocks, prior to their arrival later in the decade, he said.


Link: http://www.lubereport.com/e_article000130105.cfm

XOM was expected to have GTL production ramped up by 2010. However in 2007, they abandoned the Qatar GTL project that they were working on. One can only assume that this has meant continued reliance on using VISOM and PAO to fulfill their base stock needs.


XOM's VISOM information page with information on the two VISOM bases them make, 4 and 6:
http://www.exxonmobil.com/UK-English/Basestocks/PDS/GLXXENBSKEMVisom.aspx



ExxonMobil is still working on actually making their own GTL:
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/...nar-1616274.htm

Keep in mind, XOM is the world's largest producer of PAO, AN's and Ester base stocks. They have a vested interest in continuing to produce and use those products. However, leveraging their VISOM product, they can get away with using less PAO in many of their lubricants while having a final product that performs the same.
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Network Engineer
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#2826846 - 12/07/12 09:28 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: turbokick]
Nickdfresh Offline


Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 3242
Loc: Buffalo, NY
Originally Posted By: turbokick
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
How does anyone pretend to know the composition of Mobil 1 0W-40? It may indeed contain group III+, but I bet a tidy sum that it's at least a blend of III+ and IV...


Mobil 1 themselves confessed some time ago that group 4 and 5 basestock are too expensive to produce, that's why they replace them with a cheeper product invented by them called Visom

IMO Mobil 1 nowadays is a group 3 ¨synthetic¨, long way far from Motul 300V series


That's not exactly what they said. I believe it had more to do with the promotion of a the use of Group III+ Visom IIRC. That in no way means that it is necessarily the dominant base-stock in all Mobil 1 oils...

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#2826851 - 12/07/12 09:30 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: OVERKILL]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 29087
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: turbokick


1. You even help me then, I also know that Visom replaced only group 4 basestocks, then I think it's better even not to mention some group 5 in the whole picture (if it's expensive for you to put some PAO in your products, how can we expect some esters?)


That's quite the unfounded extrapolation. Because a company is willing to substitute some of their PAO base for their proprietary Group III+ base oil in certain applications, that automatically means they are cheapening the product on the whole, removing anything expensive from the mix like Esters or AN's?

Quote:
2. Mobil 1 only stated this one (being Visom more easy and cheep to achieve), for sure this is the main reason for Visom's introduccion and not the performance of their oils itself.
3. Here you contradict yourself, read your post.


No.

VISOM was introduced as a stop-gap. XOM had (has?) intentions on changing out some of their PAO bases for GTL when it was readily available in their supply chain. GTL was supposed to be significantly less expensive to produce, have extremely low volatility and match PAO in performance.

The paper you are thinking of with reference to Mobil's implementation of VISOM came out in 2003. Here is a quote from it:

Originally Posted By: ExxonMobil
"Wax is wax, and isomerized wax is essentially the same stuff," Cox said. "It doesn't matter where it comes from." Made from waxy feedstocks and using the same catalyst systems as GTL will use, Visom will provide valuable experience in formulating with GTL-type base stocks, prior to their arrival later in the decade, he said.


Link: http://www.lubereport.com/e_article000130105.cfm

XOM was expected to have GTL production ramped up by 2010. However in 2007, they abandoned the Qatar GTL project that they were working on. One can only assume that this has meant continued reliance on using VISOM and PAO to fulfill their base stock needs.


XOM's VISOM information page with information on the two VISOM bases them make, 4 and 6:
http://www.exxonmobil.com/UK-English/Basestocks/PDS/GLXXENBSKEMVisom.aspx



ExxonMobil is still working on actually making their own GTL:
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/...nar-1616274.htm

Keep in mind, XOM is the world's largest producer of PAO, AN's and Ester base stocks. They have a vested interest in continuing to produce and use those products. However, leveraging their VISOM product, they can get away with using less PAO in many of their lubricants while having a final product that performs the same.


Spot on. approved
_________________________
2014 3 S GT AT - OE oil
2003 Forester XS 5spd - M1 0w40

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#2826855 - 12/07/12 09:35 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: turbokick]
Nickdfresh Offline


Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 3242
Loc: Buffalo, NY
Originally Posted By: turbokick
[u]
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: turbokick
Mobil 1 themselves confessed some time ago that group 4 and 5 basestock are too expensive to produce, that's why they replace them with a cheeper product invented by them called Visom

VISOM only replaces certain types of PAO. It replaces them not only because it's cheaper, but because it performs very similarly in the ways that matter.

Also, Mobil started adding heavy PAO around the same time as they introduced VISOM, and heavy PAO is expensive.

Also, VISOM is several years old by now, and in that time Mobil 1 products have been reformulated several times.

Most importantly, all they said about VISOM is basically "hey, here's this new stuff that we can use to replace PAO sometimes." They still haven't actually explained exactly what any of their products was made of at the time, and they certainly haven't said anything along those lines since then.


Sorry man, but actually you add nothing to this thread with this post and you actually don't disprove any statement I did.

...


How can someone disprove a "statement" that is little more than conjecture and opinion, and proves nothing?

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#2826904 - 12/07/12 10:16 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: dparm]
turbokick Offline


Registered: 09/10/12
Posts: 50
Loc: East Of Heaven
I really see there's no sence to keep responding. It's like arguing with your radio. Keep choozing Mobil 1 over Motul 300V, these cars are yours.

I frankly knew it was useless to share some information about Mobil 1 in a USA forum.

Patriotism>Quality.
_________________________
BMW 323ti compact - Motul 300V Competition 15W-50
Motul Products in LSD, tranny, brakes

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#2826907 - 12/07/12 10:20 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: turbokick]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 29087
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: turbokick
I really see there's no sence to keep responding. It's like arguing with your radio. Keep choozing Mobil 1 over Motul 300V, these cars are yours.

I frankly knew it was useless to share some information about Mobil 1 in a USA forum.

Patriotism>Quality.



Has nothing to do with patriotism. It has everything to do with your overgeneralizations and completely inaccurate posts.
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2014 3 S GT AT - OE oil
2003 Forester XS 5spd - M1 0w40

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#2826909 - 12/07/12 10:26 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: buster]
turbokick Offline


Registered: 09/10/12
Posts: 50
Loc: East Of Heaven
Originally Posted By: buster
Has nothing to do with patriotism. It has everything to do with your overgeneralizations and completely inaccurate posts.



No. No way. What patriotism [censored]? Impossible...


Do you believe yourself? Who are you trying to lie?


Edited by turbokick (12/07/12 10:28 AM)
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Motul Products in LSD, tranny, brakes

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