Does "frozen" = "solid"?

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There was an off-the-wall discussion at work today among a few people. One person's contention was that anything that is below its freezing point is in fact "frozen". Take a substance that has a given melting/freezing point. That temperature is typically the same temperature, the only difference being the phase change direction (solid to liquid or liquid to solid).

An example given was a metal filing cabinet. He said that the metal is "frozen", and that in this case, "frozen" and "solid" mean the same thing. Rocks are frozen. Metal is frozen.

What say ye?
 
Originally Posted By: bepperb
What about a rubber eraser, is that a liquid because it's squishy?

Everything is squishy if enough force is applied.
 
Nope he is wrong. Somethings cant be frozen like a rock or a metal structure. Im pretty sure as well that frozen means the molecules in the object are slowed down so slow that the object is solidified. Say for instance lava is liquidish when hot but when room temp it is a solid. It cant get much more solid than that so freezing could not make the molecules any slower.

Water is a good one. at room temp its a liquid but at over 100 degrees the molecules are ripping around and steam is created. Or better said energy is applied to the water and steam is the outcome.

When frozen the molecules slow right down and the energy that was given to do that turns the water into ice.

So a metal cabinet is not a liquid but is a solid. so cold cant make the molecules any slower. but it does have a melting point and it can be turned into a liquid. A much greater energy source will be needed then say water but it does happen every day.

The only thing i dont know is what is in the object to give it a melting point or freeze point. Maybe it has to have a moisture or liquid content to begin with.

I guess a composition like from a man made item like a plastic tarp must be very different to provide outcomes like plastic melting. It must have no moisture in it but it melts. But wood has some moisture depending on how fresh it is and it doesnt melt at all. Theres a big technicality somewhere but your cabinet will not freeze and rocks will not either.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: bepperb
What about a rubber eraser, is that a liquid because it's squishy?

Everything is squishy if enough force is applied.


what about carbon? it will make something harder if squished.

I think most things will squish when the force is applied. But things like rocks and other minerals are pretty up there in a hardness scale. I think the better phrase would be most things change whether it be visually or their structure changes when energy is applied in whatever form but there is alot of science behind what does what when whatever energy is applied.

Oh yeah your eraser is a solid and there is many levels of hardness. If it were liquid it would pour out of the top of your pencil. Im not sure as to what temp a substance is given the designation of solid liquid or gas.

Natural gas or propane is a liquid when its super cold but in the normal temp range we can live in its a gas.

Water is obviously liquid at normal temps but at the others you get the point. Maybe its usefull temp range that they are classified at.
 
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Originally Posted By: abycat
Im pretty sure as well that frozen means the molecules in the object are slowed down so slow that the object is solidified.


How does this not apply to a metal, such as steel?

One definition of "freeze" is: To pass from the liquid to the solid state by loss of heat. (thefreedictionary.com)

From that standpoint, metal has passed from a liquid to a solid state by loss of heat. So is it not frozen?
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: abycat
Im pretty sure as well that frozen means the molecules in the object are slowed down so slow that the object is solidified.


How does this not apply to a metal, such as steel?

One definition of "freeze" is: To pass from the liquid to the solid state by loss of heat. (thefreedictionary.com)

From that standpoint, metal has passed from a liquid to a solid state by loss of heat. So is it not frozen?


Thats were it gets confusing. what is freezing temps? do they correspond to the object in question?. Like liquified gasses or metal. Both have extreme melting and freezing points unlike something like water.
 
The freezing point should always be the same as the melting points. So, ice might be melting in a room, but the steel chair is not melting. The chair is frozen; the water isn't frozen.

I disagree that all solids are frozen.
 
Ice/frozen water, as well as steel and carbon, has a crystalline structure when it turns from a liquid into a solid, which requires additional heat energy removal to freeze, and heat energy added to melt. Which is why ice is so good at keeping my beer cold-the extra heat energy removed from the surrounding area helps keep things colder.
cheers3.gif
 
Originally Posted By: abycat
Thats were it gets confusing. what is freezing temps? do they correspond to the object in question?.

Of course. Each matter has a different freezing/melting point. And it has nothing to do with the phrase "brrr, it's freezing out there!"
smile.gif
 
Yes, frozen is by definition in physics the same as solid.

Rubber can change shape, and it is frozen (because it is not pourable when we use it the way it is in a certain shape).

However we usually use frozen for a liquid in room temp (water).
 
You haven't considered glass, which is a liquid.

There are also supercooled fluids that remain liquid below the liquid's freezing point. There is an old trick where a bottle of beer is placed in the freezer. The beer is easily supercooled and any moisture on the outside will form ice crystals. After opening the beer, scrape off a small crystal of ice and drop it into the beer. The result is an instant beersicle.
 
Actually, the molecules DO slow down in a metal when it's cold.
Take a hand tool to Alaska in -40 deg F, and smack it hard. It can shatter.
 
Originally Posted By: Gabe
The freezing point should always be the same as the melting points. So, ice might be melting in a room, but the steel chair is not melting. The chair is frozen; the water isn't frozen.

I disagree that all solids are frozen.


What is your basis for this argument? It's pretty cut and dry, from a thermodynamics and material properties standpoint. If a material is solid, it has frozen. When steel is cooled from it's melting temp of >2,500F, it freezes, which is to say that most of its molecules begin to slow down to the point where the individual grains align in some sort of uniform structure, or lattice.

The measure of temoperature is actually in direct correlation to the motion of the individual atoms. Just because something is solid or frozen, does not mean that the molecules have stopped. they may not be flowing all around a giant vat, but they most certainly still vibrate. The level of vibration is in direct relation to the energy present at that temperature. As the material approaches absolute zero, the molecules approach zero vibration or motion.

It's really as simple as that.
 
Originally Posted By: abycat
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: abycat
Im pretty sure as well that frozen means the molecules in the object are slowed down so slow that the object is solidified.


How does this not apply to a metal, such as steel?

One definition of "freeze" is: To pass from the liquid to the solid state by loss of heat. (thefreedictionary.com)

From that standpoint, metal has passed from a liquid to a solid state by loss of heat. So is it not frozen?


Thats were it gets confusing. what is freezing temps? do they correspond to the object in question?. Like liquified gasses or metal. Both have extreme melting and freezing points unlike something like water.


Your oversimplification is thinking that "room temperature" has anything to do with whether something is "frozen".
 
Dictionary.com says:

Code:




freeze

   [freez] Show IPA verb, froze, fro·zen, freez·ing, noun

verb (used without object)



1.to become hardened into ice or into a solid body; change from the liquid to the solid state by loss of heat.



2.to become hard or stiffened because of loss of heat, as objects containing moisture: Meat will freeze in a few hours.



3.to suffer the effects of intense cold; have the sensation of extreme cold: We sat there freezing until the heat came on.



4.to be of the degree of cold at which water freezes: It may freeze tonight.



5.to lose warmth of feeling; be stunned or chilled with fear, shock, etc.: My heart froze when she told me the news.



noun



34.the act of freezing; state of being frozen.



35.Also called ice-up. Meteorology . a widespread occurrence of temperatures below 32°F (0°C) persisting for at least several days:

A freeze is expected in the coastal areas.



36.a frost.



37.a legislative action, especially in time of national emergency, to control prices, rents, production, etc.: The government put a freeze on new construction.



38.a decision by one or more nations to stop or limit production or development of weapons, especially nuclear weapons.



Verb phrases



39.freeze on / onto, Informal . to adhere closely to; hold on; seize.



40.freeze out, to exclude or compel (somebody) to withdraw from membership, acceptance, a position of influence or advantage, etc., by cold treatment or severe competition.



41.freeze over, to coat or become coated with ice: The lake freezes over for several months each year.



Origin:

before 1000; (v.) Middle English fresen, Old English frēosan; cognate with Middle Low German vrēsen,



Old Norse frjōsa, Old High German friosan ( German frieren ); (noun) late Middle English frese, derivative of the v.
 
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Zero degrees Kelvin is absolute zero, at which all atomic motion comes to a standstill. All the energy has been extracted.

The closest they have come so far in experiments is .45 nanokelvin or 1/2 of a billionth of a degree above 0 Kelvin.

Its -273 C
 
When talking about materials like water, metal, and rocks, the definition of feezing is easy because the material forms a definite crystal structure from liquid.

Other materials can fall into a gray area, such as glass (already pointed out that it's a liquid at room temperature), and maybe jello, whipped cream, grease, and plastics. Or to be more scientific, materials that have long (or short) carbon chains that intertwine imperfectly. For those material we graph viscosity versus temperature and denote a logical point called the "glass transition temperature", which is the equivalent to crystalline freezing.
 
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