What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

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OP's HIGH-RESOLUTION PICTURES: Here is a link to an online folder which contains all my pictures as well as a short video of the motor ticking. The ticking is actually a bit lower in audio tone then what is obvious on the video. When the engine is revved it sound horrible but its hard to distinguish on the video.

Adam's 2009 Pilot

I think the difference between the front and rear valve trains is just astounding - one almost like new and the other totally varnished with the beginning of sludge. It is also quite interesting that the cylinder which shuts down in the 4-cylinder VCM mode is the most polluted of the three that run in 3-cylinder VCM mode. One would think it would be less polluted then the other two if it does not work as much. Another mystery?
 
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
It is also quite interesting that the cylinder which shuts down in the 4-cylinder VCM mode is the most polluted of the three that run in 3-cylinder VCM mode. One would think it would be less polluted then the other two if it does not work as much. Another mystery?


Is it because it is never reaching the operating temperature?
 
That gummed up head must have gotten plugged up, and the oil would sit up there and cook. Had the gunk been more evenly distributed on both heads I'd call it a neglected engine, or an engine that needed more frequent oil changes, take your pick. The fact that one head is clean the other a mess I call it a mechanical issue and/or a lousy engine design.
 
The difference between the two heads is striking! Looking at the "good" head is hard to believe that engine was ran on dino for over 10K OCI. It really looks like brand new. It is also the bank which "supposedly" ran the hottest. I think that assertion needs to be revisited. Is it possible that Adam has wrongly identified which cylinders are shut down in VCM mode? Front valve train seems to be the one which is cooked, although I still don't see sludge or blocked passages on apart from really dark varnish. The rear valve train looks like it was manufactured yesterday.

Also the "gasket with screens" picture shows no clogged passages. Was the picture taken after the cleanup?

In any case, this is either a design issue or manufacturing defect, but definitely not the owner or dealer neglect. I hope Adam has luck with the manufacturer to pony up the expenses to fix this problem.
 
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Originally Posted By: Vikas
The difference between the two heads is striking! Looking at the "good" head is hard to believe that engine was ran on dino for over 10K OCI. It really looks like brand new. It is also the bank which "supposedly" ran the hottest. I think that assertion needs to be revisited. Is it possible that Adam has wrongly identified which cylinders are shut down in VCM mode? Front valve train seems to be the one which is cooked, although I still don't see sludge or blocked passages on apart from really dark varnish. The rear valve train looks like it was manufactured yesterday.

Also the "gasket with screens" picture shows no clogged passages. Was the picture taken after the cleanup?

In any case, this is either a design issue or manufacturing defect, but definitely not the owner or dealer neglect. I hope Adam has luck with the manufacturer to pony up the expenses to fix this problem.


Just to clarify, the rear valve train shuts down in 3-cylinger mode, the front cylinder it the one that does all the work and is cooked. And the filter with screen picture is not my vehicle. I just used it to compare the older gasket from the newer one without the filter, still in its package.
 
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Originally Posted By: demarpaint
That gummed up head must have gotten plugged up, and the oil would sit up there and cook. Had the gunk been more evenly distributed on both heads I'd call it a neglected engine, or an engine that needed more frequent oil changes, take your pick. The fact that one head is clean the other a mess I call it a mechanical issue and/or a lousy engine design.


I agree 100%. This is one reason why I do not like using a oil to attempt masking mechanical or design issues. Good luck Adam with your dealings with Honda.
 
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
That gummed up head must have gotten plugged up, and the oil would sit up there and cook. Had the gunk been more evenly distributed on both heads I'd call it a neglected engine, or an engine that needed more frequent oil changes, take your pick. The fact that one head is clean the other a mess I call it a mechanical issue and/or a lousy engine design.


I agree 100%. This is one reason why I do not like using a oil to attempt masking mechanical or design issues. Good luck Adam with your dealings with Honda.


Yep that's asking a lot of any oil. A good oil can't compensate for a lousy engine design. It might slow the process down, but its really not the fix. JMO
 
Sorry if I'm late to the party, but can someone clarify for me that this engine's design actually shuts off all three cylinders on the same bank?

Slightly off topic, but does the Chrysler MDS do the same thing?
 
Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Sorry if I'm late to the party, but can someone clarify for me that this engine's design actually shuts off all three cylinders on the same bank?

Slightly off topic, but does the Chrysler MDS do the same thing?

Yes, one side for 3, 2 on each side for 4 cyl operation. MDS does the same thing as the pilot's 4 cyl mode, goes from an 8cyl to a 4, 2 on each side.
 
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Sorry if I'm late to the party, but can someone clarify for me that this engine's design actually shuts off all three cylinders on the same bank?

Slightly off topic, but does the Chrysler MDS do the same thing?

Yes, one side for 3, 2 on each side for 4 cyl operation. MDS does the same thing as the pilot's 4 cyl mode, goes from an 8cyl to a 4, 2 on each side.


One side for 3 cylinders. Does it alternate sides for 3 cyl operation, or is it always the same side for 3 cyl operation? Probably the same side. It must get nice and hot, and it appears this design can't handle the heat.
 
It seems to me that Honda failed to calibrate this engine's OLM to account for long stretches of highway driving on only 3 cylinders, which the OP does a lot of. The complexity of the design, an OLM calibrated for less-sophisticated technology, and moving that weight on 3 cylinders for much of the vehicle's operation looks to be a perfect storm for sludge in this application. I think the reason forums haven't been bombarded with similar situations is the OP's highway driving takes up a larger percentage of the vehicle's use than it does for most other drivers.

Firing on all 6 cylinders, a 10k OCI *might* be reasonable under those driving conditions, and I suspect the OLM thinks so, too.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Sorry if I'm late to the party, but can someone clarify for me that this engine's design actually shuts off all three cylinders on the same bank?

Slightly off topic, but does the Chrysler MDS do the same thing?

Yes, one side for 3, 2 on each side for 4 cyl operation. MDS does the same thing as the pilot's 4 cyl mode, goes from an 8cyl to a 4, 2 on each side.


One side for 3 cylinders. Does it alternate sides for 3 cyl operation, or is it always the same side for 3 cyl operation? Probably the same side. It must get nice and hot, and it appears this design can't handle the heat.

Judging by the pictures its always the same side in 3 cyl ECO mode.
 
Originally Posted By: yesthatsteve
It seems to me that Honda failed to calibrate this engine's OLM to account for long stretches of highway driving on only 3 cylinders, which the OP does a lot of. The complexity of the design, an OLM calibrated for less-sophisticated technology, and moving that weight on 3 cylinders for much of the vehicle's operation looks to be a perfect storm for sludge in this application. I think the reason forums haven't been bombarded with similar situations is the OP's highway driving takes up a larger percentage of the vehicle's use than it does for most other drivers.

Firing on all 6 cylinders, a 10k OCI *might* be reasonable under those driving conditions, and I suspect the OLM thinks so, too.

I think we assume an OLM has "intelligence" beyond the basic statistics posted on your computer dash. Would like to see an in depth article containing the actual OLM "algorithms".
 
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Sorry if I'm late to the party, but can someone clarify for me that this engine's design actually shuts off all three cylinders on the same bank?

Slightly off topic, but does the Chrysler MDS do the same thing?

Yes, one side for 3, 2 on each side for 4 cyl operation. MDS does the same thing as the pilot's 4 cyl mode, goes from an 8cyl to a 4, 2 on each side.


One side for 3 cylinders. Does it alternate sides for 3 cyl operation, or is it always the same side for 3 cyl operation? Probably the same side. It must get nice and hot, and it appears this design can't handle the heat.

Judging by the pictures its always the same side in 3 cyl ECO mode.


Yep, it sure seems that way. Imagine the extra wear on those 3 cylinders, and additional fouling inside the combustion chamber over the years?
 
The fact that the gunk is all on one side surely indicts the fuel saving cylinder cutoff design. I can't believe it uses the same 3 cylinders all the time!

Nitehawk nailed it^^^ poor engine design.
 
Yes very poor design and poor advice from the dealer.

Dump is and buy something else, your not going to get anywhere fighting Honda.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The fact that the gunk is all on one side surely indicts the fuel saving cylinder cutoff design. I can't believe it uses the same 3 cylinders all the time!

Nitehawk nailed it^^^ poor engine design.


I've been saying lousy engine design all along. We can't blame the oil that's for sure. Programming the OLM to a shorter interval might help, GM had to do it with their DI engines. A few companies shortened their OCI to compensate for problems too. The shorter interval will help cheat a bit to compensate for a lousy engine design in this case, but its still no fix.

I can't believe they didn't engineer that engine to switch from one bank to the other bank, with some kind of timer, tweaking, or programming. At least this way that muck would be more evenly distributed, and the owners might get some more life out of the engine before a big $$$$ repair is in order. JMO
 
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: yesthatsteve
It seems to me that Honda failed to calibrate this engine's OLM to account for long stretches of highway driving on only 3 cylinders, which the OP does a lot of. The complexity of the design, an OLM calibrated for less-sophisticated technology, and moving that weight on 3 cylinders for much of the vehicle's operation looks to be a perfect storm for sludge in this application. I think the reason forums haven't been bombarded with similar situations is the OP's highway driving takes up a larger percentage of the vehicle's use than it does for most other drivers.

Firing on all 6 cylinders, a 10k OCI *might* be reasonable under those driving conditions, and I suspect the OLM thinks so, too.

I think we assume an OLM has "intelligence" beyond the basic statistics posted on your computer dash. Would like to see an in depth article containing the actual OLM "algorithms".


"The patented engine oil change technology involves computerized monitoring of engine revolutions, operating temperature, and other factors to optimize the change interval selection. The typical recommended interval for gasoline-fueled passenger cars and light-duty trucks is 3,000 miles (4,800 km) or three months, whichever first occurs, when outside temperatures are below freezing and trips are short. These conditions are considered severe duty. For ideal driving conditions, relating to long trips with mild outside temperatures, the interval can be expanded to 7,500 miles (12,000 km). Starting with the 2000 model year on certain vehicles, GM will raise the maximum mileage allowed for Oil-Life System-equipped vehicles to between 10,000 and 15,000 miles (16,000 and 25,000 km), depending on vehicle brand and engine*.

The development of the Oil-Life System began over a decade ago by researchers Shirley Schwartz and Donald Smolenski, both of the GM Research Laboratories. They discovered, through various investigations, that oil degradation, in general, followed pathways influenced by service and environmental conditions. The extremes of these conditions, as shown in Figure 1, are high-temperature, high-load on one end and low-temperature, low-load on the other. In between is the large operating domain representing the majority of driving conditions. The basic design of the Oil-Life System was intended to characterize extreme operating conditions and most points in between. While the Oil-Life System does not actually monitor any single quality or physical property of the oil, it does incorporate the use of a highly sophisticated mathematical model. This model applies the known influence of oil service temperature and revolutions to characterize the remaining life. The influence of temperature, in particular, has a marked impact on oil life. The almost parabolic nature of the aging rate with temperature emphasizes the importance of this as dependent variable. On the other hand, time or running time (in the absence of mileage or engine revolution data) was not found to be a particularly good indicator of oil life, since it did not adequately distinguish between periods of extended idle and periods when engine speed was high.

The onboard calculation of oil age was simplified by using penalty factors (as opposed to equations). A penalty factor is an indication of the rate of oil aging at a given operating temperature. For any given oil, higher penalty factors are associated with faster oil-aging rates. The model uses engine revolutions as a basis for measuring duration of service. Gathering the data to show correlation of on-board measurements of oil-change intervals to laboratory oil analysis is a slow process, requiring months or years. For example, a typical short-trip service test can last two years. During the original research program approximately 130,000 kilometers were accumulated in determining the constants for the mathematical model and another 160,000 kilometers were logged in testing vehicles equipped with the Oil-Life System. The four oil analysis tests are:

1. Total Acid Number (TAN)-Concentration of acid constituents in the oil from oil oxidation and combustion products.
2. Total Base Number (TBN)-Depletion of overbase detergent additive.
3. Differential Scanning Calorimetry (DSC)-Approximates the remaining life of the antioxidant (residual oxidation induction time).
4. Pentane Insolubles (PIN)-Concentration of carbon soot and sludge.

The point at which the oil-change indicator signaled an oil change is then shown. All oil analyses results are plotted, including those data points regarded as "outliers", that is, points with values differing by more than approximately 20 percent from the trend lines from all data. It is interesting that DSC data followed a rapid decay curve from the outset. Also interesting is that both TAN rises and TBN falls at an apparent increased rate near the point where PIN rises (about 16,000 km). Even though not all of these changes occurred with each vehicle and there was usually some oscillation in the data, it was still possible to use these generalizations as guidelines to characterize the oil aging process.

From these studies and other subsequent investigations it is clear that there are distinct benefits to drivers of vehicles equipped with the oil-life monitoring systems. For those who neglect to change their oil on a regular basis, the system provides reminders that a change is due. If they need the reminder and follow through with an oil change, they'll protect their engine from premature wear. And, drivers who thought they needed to get their oil changed every 3,000 miles (5,000 km) or so, might be able to go longer between changes. This will save them money, time, and perhaps more importantly, precious natural resources.
"

Ref: Schwartz, S. E. and D. J. Smolenski, "Development of an Automatic Engine Oil-Change Indicator System," SAE Paper 870403

This is how GM developed their OLM.

Also no matter how oil change intervals are calculated overcoming a engineering or mechanical defect is just ridiculous IMHO. This appears to be the case here.
 
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