Interesting thread, I don't have the time to read the whole thing but heres my experience as well. My friend had a 2008 or 2009 accord lease with the 2.4l 4cyl. I did 3-4 of the oil changes on it, following the OLM's recommendation on when to change the oil. I was kind of surprised to see that it looked like there was a quite a bit of varnish either on the oil cap, or when I looked at the valvetrain through the oil cap hole at around 40k-50k (i forget exactly when). I had always used quality name brand conventional oils, so I suspect that honda configured their olm's to stretch the oci a little too far, especially after reading some of the replies to this thread. I think his average oci was around 7,500mi. If it were my car I would have changed the oil every 5k, but being a lease I knew that he would never go for it and would want to follow the olm to save money.
What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?
- Thread starter Adam_in_NH
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That's what I though. My friend doesn't know a lot about cars and is one of those people who tries to put as little money as possible into a leased vehicle (rarely washes and never waxes, might stretch oci's past mfg recommendations). I suspect that he may have gone longer than he should have on a few of the oci's when I couldn't do his oil, but still surprising to see regardless.
Sorry to hear about the motor. I'd try to pursue this issue with corporate and see how far you can get.
In the meantime you had stated that the tick went away when you had switched to Pennzoil high mileage. It appears that some cleaning was occurring. I'd do a couple of short changes with it again to see if you can gently get most of the sludge out of there.
I'd really get a second opinion also.
In the meantime you had stated that the tick went away when you had switched to Pennzoil high mileage. It appears that some cleaning was occurring. I'd do a couple of short changes with it again to see if you can gently get most of the sludge out of there.
I'd really get a second opinion also.
Wait and see what Honda will do for you. I doubt that you need a new engine or that the oil and long service interval caused the cam wear. It may be possible that the oil could have become acidic due to TBN depletion and softened the surface, or that the oil could have been too far out of grade at that mileage to protect the cam ( I am just speculating here, not sure if either are possible).
If I had to pay for the repair I would pull the oil pan to inspect the bearings and oil pickup. Then if everything was good I would fix the top end. I would perform the repair in the TSB and adjust the valves. If the valves couldn't be adjusted to spec, then I would consider replacing the cams. Another possible area of wear that could throw the valve clearance off is the roller tip on the rocker arm.
Like Pablo mentioned it seems strange that 10,000m after the noise started that the cams would be worn out.
If I had to pay for the repair I would pull the oil pan to inspect the bearings and oil pickup. Then if everything was good I would fix the top end. I would perform the repair in the TSB and adjust the valves. If the valves couldn't be adjusted to spec, then I would consider replacing the cams. Another possible area of wear that could throw the valve clearance off is the roller tip on the rocker arm.
Like Pablo mentioned it seems strange that 10,000m after the noise started that the cams would be worn out.
Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
honda's are all perfect, and one single failing engine is just impossible, this entire post and thread is just a fabrication. nothing else to see here.
Come drive the vehicle and see for yourself.
honda's are all perfect, and one single failing engine is just impossible, this entire post and thread is just a fabrication. nothing else to see here.
Come drive the vehicle and see for yourself.
Originally Posted By: AVB
Did the service writer say the valves could not be adjusted far enough to get back to the correct clearance?
I have seen cams fail in other engines, one was a roller cam Chevy 6.0, one lobe had a groove worn in it from the lifter. I don't know for sure if it was a soft cam, bad lifter or sticking valve. I didn't tear it down far enough to see.
Yes, that is exactly what the service writer said.
Did the service writer say the valves could not be adjusted far enough to get back to the correct clearance?
I have seen cams fail in other engines, one was a roller cam Chevy 6.0, one lobe had a groove worn in it from the lifter. I don't know for sure if it was a soft cam, bad lifter or sticking valve. I didn't tear it down far enough to see.
Yes, that is exactly what the service writer said.
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
honda's are all perfect, and one single failing engine is just impossible, this entire post and thread is just a fabrication. nothing else to see here.
Come drive the vehicle and see for yourself.
I sold them, and saw my fair share of them with problems. V6 Accord, and Odyssey transmissions come to mind. They are far from perfect IMO.
Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
honda's are all perfect, and one single failing engine is just impossible, this entire post and thread is just a fabrication. nothing else to see here.
Come drive the vehicle and see for yourself.
I sold them, and saw my fair share of them with problems. V6 Accord, and Odyssey transmissions come to mind. They are far from perfect IMO.
Quote:
In theory a conventional like the Mobil 5000 could run a 9K + OCI but conditions would have to be just perfect
The ones i have done (5 or 6 now) have all had synthetic at 7500 or OLM and they have been shocking.
Oil brand seemed to play no role in the failure but every one had brand name (not the same brand) oil.
They ranged from downright horrible to put a long block in it.
Whoever came up up with the oil specs at Honda for this one really dropped the ball.
I honestly don't think Dino can hold up 5K in this engine under most/any conditions.
Every single time this thing slips into Eco mode the front bank gets really hot.
The problem is on flat ground it will go in eco at 30 mph running on the front 3 only the same as it does on the highway.
The only thing i can think of is it is getting the oil so hot that breaks it down quickly.
The pictures i took show much more solid deposits on the front bank (the one that does the most work) with just heavy varnish on the rear.
Cleaning the front was difficult the rear relatively easy in comparison, the oil pan had hard deposits and galley was well sludged.
I don't do these anymore, its more trouble than its worth.
The clean up just to labor intensive.
To date no one i know has had any luck with Honda footing the bill or getting it fixed once the warranty is done.
In theory a conventional like the Mobil 5000 could run a 9K + OCI but conditions would have to be just perfect
The ones i have done (5 or 6 now) have all had synthetic at 7500 or OLM and they have been shocking.
Oil brand seemed to play no role in the failure but every one had brand name (not the same brand) oil.
They ranged from downright horrible to put a long block in it.
Whoever came up up with the oil specs at Honda for this one really dropped the ball.
I honestly don't think Dino can hold up 5K in this engine under most/any conditions.
Every single time this thing slips into Eco mode the front bank gets really hot.
The problem is on flat ground it will go in eco at 30 mph running on the front 3 only the same as it does on the highway.
The only thing i can think of is it is getting the oil so hot that breaks it down quickly.
The pictures i took show much more solid deposits on the front bank (the one that does the most work) with just heavy varnish on the rear.
Cleaning the front was difficult the rear relatively easy in comparison, the oil pan had hard deposits and galley was well sludged.
I don't do these anymore, its more trouble than its worth.
The clean up just to labor intensive.
To date no one i know has had any luck with Honda footing the bill or getting it fixed once the warranty is done.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
This is an unfortunate incident.
Exactly what oil was recommended for this engine and what does the manual say about intervals? The recommended oil is what the OLM is calibrated for, whether that's a conventional or a synthetic. If an OLM was calibrated for a synthetic, and you ran a conventional, that would be a recipe for problems. Ultimately, whatever the manual recommends is going to be what Honda will be required to live up to, not some vague recommendation from a dealer that likely can't be proven.
I have never heard of an OLM "failing" perse because it's built into the PCM. I suppose anything is possible but??? I don't know exactly how Honda's works, but most are just algorithms based on certain inputs programmed onto a chart in the PCM. There are no "sensors" in most OLMs that monitor actual oil condition. Could yours have been accidentally reset somehow partway thru the interval? Was the battery replaced during that period, the van jump started or some electrical work done?
In theory a conventional like the Mobil 5000 could run a 9K + OCI but conditions would have to be just perfect. Having live next door to NH in VT, I doubt those perfect conditions were met.
As Gabe mentioned above, a quick look in the owner's manual might have prevented this incident. It can be a hard lesson to learn, but dealer personnel can't be regarded as the end-all authority. Obviously, they should be... but reality has sharp teeth. The failsafe is an owner who knows enough to have a "bovine scatology" detector sensitive enough to set off some alarms. That requires a little self education.
Thank you, Jim. The owners manual specify's Premium Grade, API certified 5W-30 conventional motor oil for gasoline engines, but allows synthetic oil of the same grade. My dealer used 'Mobil Bulk' according to their invoices. I inquired with their parts department and was told this is the same as Mobil Super 5000 conventional oil. Mobil said that after 5000 miles it will still lubricate but the additives will begin to break down. I explained to the dealer that I was not comfortable going that long on conventional oil and he told me not to worry about it. No battery replacement, jump starting, or dead batteries.
This is an unfortunate incident.
Exactly what oil was recommended for this engine and what does the manual say about intervals? The recommended oil is what the OLM is calibrated for, whether that's a conventional or a synthetic. If an OLM was calibrated for a synthetic, and you ran a conventional, that would be a recipe for problems. Ultimately, whatever the manual recommends is going to be what Honda will be required to live up to, not some vague recommendation from a dealer that likely can't be proven.
I have never heard of an OLM "failing" perse because it's built into the PCM. I suppose anything is possible but??? I don't know exactly how Honda's works, but most are just algorithms based on certain inputs programmed onto a chart in the PCM. There are no "sensors" in most OLMs that monitor actual oil condition. Could yours have been accidentally reset somehow partway thru the interval? Was the battery replaced during that period, the van jump started or some electrical work done?
In theory a conventional like the Mobil 5000 could run a 9K + OCI but conditions would have to be just perfect. Having live next door to NH in VT, I doubt those perfect conditions were met.
As Gabe mentioned above, a quick look in the owner's manual might have prevented this incident. It can be a hard lesson to learn, but dealer personnel can't be regarded as the end-all authority. Obviously, they should be... but reality has sharp teeth. The failsafe is an owner who knows enough to have a "bovine scatology" detector sensitive enough to set off some alarms. That requires a little self education.
Thank you, Jim. The owners manual specify's Premium Grade, API certified 5W-30 conventional motor oil for gasoline engines, but allows synthetic oil of the same grade. My dealer used 'Mobil Bulk' according to their invoices. I inquired with their parts department and was told this is the same as Mobil Super 5000 conventional oil. Mobil said that after 5000 miles it will still lubricate but the additives will begin to break down. I explained to the dealer that I was not comfortable going that long on conventional oil and he told me not to worry about it. No battery replacement, jump starting, or dead batteries.
My neighbors have an 08 Pilot, interesting. I know 4 bangers are in a different league. Still I wouldn't follow the OLM with conventional oil event with the 4 banger.
Very sorry to hear of your problems, Adam. Try to get anything and everything in writing concerning your plight.
Of course get all your ducks in a row and research to see if this is a common problem.
If Honda Corp. does not satisfy you, consider as a last resort contacting a Lemon Law lawyer in your area. While your problem might not technically fall into the Lemon Law guidelines, these lawyers know the ropes about handling the car companies. If they are confident they can win, most likely you only have to pay a tiny upfront fee.
Best of luck to you. This should be considered an eye opener for anyone that thinks you should follow the mfg. recommendations always. In this case, your gut feeling was more correct.
Of course get all your ducks in a row and research to see if this is a common problem.
If Honda Corp. does not satisfy you, consider as a last resort contacting a Lemon Law lawyer in your area. While your problem might not technically fall into the Lemon Law guidelines, these lawyers know the ropes about handling the car companies. If they are confident they can win, most likely you only have to pay a tiny upfront fee.
Best of luck to you. This should be considered an eye opener for anyone that thinks you should follow the mfg. recommendations always. In this case, your gut feeling was more correct.
A great many around BITOG love OLMs and actually get upset and defensive when they are questioned or criticized -
spouting off like experts with decades of proven experience.
Situations like the OP are exactly why I have concerns about them.
spouting off like experts with decades of proven experience.
Situations like the OP are exactly why I have concerns about them.
Originally Posted By: Malo83
Those OLM's are just dandy, ain't they
An OLM is not designed to protect the vehicle, its designed to protect the planet.
Those OLM's are just dandy, ain't they
An OLM is not designed to protect the vehicle, its designed to protect the planet.
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: Malo83
Those OLM's are just dandy, ain't they
An OLM is not designed to protect the vehicle, its designed to protect the planet.
That is a very interesting and astute point of view.
Originally Posted By: Malo83
Those OLM's are just dandy, ain't they
An OLM is not designed to protect the vehicle, its designed to protect the planet.
That is a very interesting and astute point of view.
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: Malo83
Those OLM's are just dandy, ain't they
An OLM is not designed to protect the vehicle, its designed to protect the planet.
You're right, I never liked them, and never will. From the sound of it, it sure didn't do the OP any good in terms of protecting his engine.
Originally Posted By: Malo83
Those OLM's are just dandy, ain't they
An OLM is not designed to protect the vehicle, its designed to protect the planet.
You're right, I never liked them, and never will. From the sound of it, it sure didn't do the OP any good in terms of protecting his engine.
We have an 05 Odyssey with the non VCM 3.5 engine and it has always run synthetic since we bought it CPO at about 40k miles (96k on it now). After I saw trav's post some time ago I looked at ours. It was all varnished and had the beginnings of sludge on one of the head bolts that I could see through the filler hole.
I had been following the OLM the entire time but using synthetics. After I saw his post, I ran through one pass of KREEN then changed the oil back to the old school days of 3000-4000 miles. I also switched from 5w-20 to 5w-30 which really quieted it down and changed the PCV valve out.
The PCV I removed was not making any noise when shaken. I now check that every oil change now as well (on the front valve cover in the front on the left hand side held in with a bolt). After all of that the motor is cleaner but the varnish remains and probably always will. With it being non VCM, I don't anticipate any further trouble with it just as long as the PCV stays clean and working and I change the oil often. The PCV is a really horrible design.
I had been following the OLM the entire time but using synthetics. After I saw his post, I ran through one pass of KREEN then changed the oil back to the old school days of 3000-4000 miles. I also switched from 5w-20 to 5w-30 which really quieted it down and changed the PCV valve out.
The PCV I removed was not making any noise when shaken. I now check that every oil change now as well (on the front valve cover in the front on the left hand side held in with a bolt). After all of that the motor is cleaner but the varnish remains and probably always will. With it being non VCM, I don't anticipate any further trouble with it just as long as the PCV stays clean and working and I change the oil often. The PCV is a really horrible design.
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