New EPA coal regs = $180 billion

[fsskier]

IS that a stretch.....how does open sewage, Bernie Madoff, Wall street manipulation, lead poisoning help Detroit??

Many corporate insiders and analysts have noted that Detroit would have been REALLY blindsided by the shift to more efficient cars - had they not gotten prodded by Fuel Economy Regulations.
I, for one think Detroit could have done as well or better than it foreign competitors (many of which are building in the US) if the Corporate Fat-Cats had invested more in engineering and product development. Of course investment reduces income and profits in the short run, along with their bonus checks. Yup, gotta grab that Bonus Check..... they were "creating wealth" by undermining the corporate future

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: occity79
My plan if I was able to be in charge:
1. Defund EPA.
2. Declare lawsuits to stop or obstruct power projects, new factories, chemical plants, etc... VOID!
3. Encourage coal usage, as we need afforable power now more than ever.
4. Encourage all forms of domestic production of energy products, gas, oil, coal. Alternative "green" energy not to receive any public subsidies, including corn ethanol.
5. VOID all trade agreements, do place large tarrifs on china, and change tax code to start rewarding domestic manufacturing.


I propose the all nuclear approach and ban any lawsuit challenging plant sites, dumping site, reprocessing, etc. I propose every city should build at least one nuclear plant in downtown as it is close to the electricity users as well as the waste water for cooling need and waste heat for other civilian use.

We should start with Maryland.

 

[fsskier]

PandaBear, you have seen the path to our future! Since we will be deregulated, might as well skip the containment vessel, and some of the safety systems, it will create more wealth for the Chairman of the Board with huge bonus's

Perhaps a little radiation leakage will give those living nearby a nice suntan, money saved on tanning spa's would be considerable. Spent fuel rods...... maybe some "end the EPA" true believer will let you bury them in his back yard..... much cheaper than hardened containers...tell any potential new owners that it is a huge sandbox..... kids are overrated anyway...

Yup, gonna like the future without the bad old EPA around.
OSHA is next, coal mining is way to safe now, we do not kill nearly as many as China does...

fsskier

 

[SteveSRT8]

It's really funny to hear you all ranting about Chairmen of the Board and Bonuses.

Guzzle that kool aid, it makes you more malleable and compliant.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: fsskier
IS that a stretch.....how does open sewage, Bernie Madoff, Wall street manipulation, lead poisoning help Detroit??

Many corporate insiders and analysts have noted that Detroit would have been REALLY blindsided by the shift to more efficient cars - had they not gotten prodded by Fuel Economy Regulations.
I, for one think Detroit could have done as well or better than it foreign competitors (many of which are building in the US) if the Corporate Fat-Cats had invested more in engineering and product development. Of course investment reduces income and profits in the short run, along with their bonus checks. Yup, gotta grab that Bonus Check..... they were "creating wealth" by undermining the corporate future

Should milk and oil be classified the same as to it's environmental impact?

 

[Shannow]

Tip a gallon of each onto your lawn and let us know.

 

[occity79]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
I propose the all nuclear approach and ban any lawsuit challenging plant sites, dumping site, reprocessing, etc. I propose every city should build at least one nuclear plant in downtown as it is close to the electricity users as well as the waste water for cooling need and waste heat for other civilian use.

We should start with Maryland.

Yes, that's fine with me Panda! Coal would be cheaper for us regular working stiffs ratepayers. I like Nukes just fine, we have one of the best plants in the US of A here in Calvert County Maryland. Either the US re-industrializes or the US will just end up a third rate country, but I guess that's the ecofreaks / America Haters goal ??

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Tip a gallon of each onto your lawn and let us know.

No need, the EPA has made the decision:
http://www.epa.gov/oem/content/spcc/spcc_milk.htm

For decades it considered milk and crude oil to be of the same danger and required all of the same protections.

But the good news is that it finally decided this was ridiculous and it only took them 2 years to finalize the rule.

 

[LTVibe]

New EPA Regulations to Take 34 GW of Electricity Generation Offline

Quote:
More than 34 gigawatts (GW) of electrical generating capacity are now set to retire because of the Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) Mercury and Air Toxics Rule (colloquially called Utility MACT) and the Cross State Air Pollution Rule (CSAPR) regulations. Most of these retirements will come from coal-fired power plants, shuttering over 10 percent of the U.S.’s coal-fired generating capacity...

...EPA’s modeling grossly underestimates the actual number of closures. As noted above, EPA calculated that only 9.5 GW of electrical generating capacity would close as a result of its rules. But the reality is that over 35 GW of power generating capacity will likely close—over three times the amount predicted by EPA modeling. Worse, as utilities continue to assess how to comply with EPA’s finalized Utility MACT rule and CSAPR, there will likely be further plant closure announcements in the coming weeks and months.


Will we be seeing more headlines like THIS in the future?

 

[JHZR2]

Yeah, nothing like mercury and sulfur spewing into the air in your backyard.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Yeah, nothing like mercury and sulfur spewing into the air in your backyard.


So skyrocketing energy prices and a lower standard of living is your preferred choice?

Have you seen the employment rate and living standard in Spain since they did this? You are endorsing it.

 

[JHZR2]

Last I checked, acid rain and mercury in the air does indeed mean a lower standard of living.

Would I pay 20% more to not have this? Yes. Perhaps because I made something for myself and CAN afford it. Not my problem if others cant, right? Im willing to vote with my wallet, free market, right?

Youre free to get an extra injection of H2SO4 and Hg into your veins if you like it... Or go live in Shanghai and see how you like it.

Easy to cite analogy and make big claims from behind a computer.

People will take a dump in their drinking water if they have a chance to do what is easy and cheap. I assume that includes you?

 

[LTVibe]

Nobody wants acid rain and mercury in the air, and I'm already paying more because Florida's Progress Energy Corp. has to charge more for converting coal plants to natural gas.

But it's wrong for the EPA to force plants to shut down before the lost generating capacity can be replaced.

Imagine if the EPA applied the same rules to the auto industry: all vehicles that don't meet 2012 fuel economy and emissions standards must be removed from service. Not a problem for those who can afford new vehicles, but low income people driving old vehicles would be forced to find other means of transportation.

 

[Shannow]

The companies built power stations with a design life of 25 years, 150,000 hours. They depreciated them as such, then continue to operate them multiples of their "design"/depreciation life.

As such, they have to keep them up to at least some sort of standard.

As to your car analogy, how many mid 60s cars are serving as daily drivers compared to 60s power stations ?

The beancounters are never going to retire old gear, and "replace" generating capacity until it actually costs them something.

 

[LTVibe]

It's not that 'beancounters' are refusing to retire old plants. The problem is the companies have not been given sufficient time for upgrades:

Two East Texas coal power plants to be idled

Quote:
The company said it will spend about $280 million through 2012 on emissions control equipment, but won't complete the projects in time to meet the deadline.

My car analogy assumed vehicles from the '80s and '90s, not the '60s.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Gosh, since October of 2011 and only one member gets this?

Putting more people on unemployment and food stamps isn't helping things much. Thanks EPA!

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: LTVibe
It's not that 'beancounters' are refusing to retire old plants. The problem is the companies have not been given sufficient time for upgrades:

Two East Texas coal power plants to be idled

Quote:
The company said it will spend about $280 million through 2012 on emissions control equipment, but won't complete the projects in time to meet the deadline.


Also from exactly the same link...indicating that management want to blame the EPA for some other agenda that they might have...
Quote:
She said "it is unfortunate that company leadership rushed to a decision that needlessly puts their workers' jobs at risk," even though the EPA just recently "offered to share additional information that shows the potential for a no-shutdown, no-layoff solution for statewide compliance.'


Companies with large installations can negotiate staged implementation to emission controls reductions...but if you've got an ancient workplace culture full of demarkation, asbestos clean-up legacies etc., it make so much more sense to have somebody "force" you to shut it down.


Originally Posted By: LTVibe
My car analogy assumed vehicles from the '80s and '90s, not the '60s.


Why did you make THAT assumption ?

On what basis ?

The two plants that you are drawing attention to are same manufacturing era as the Pinto, and designed probably 10 years before that.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Gosh, since October of 2011 and only one member gets this?


No, tempest's world view is that
EPA = BAD
GOVT = BAD
Businesses doing whatever they want for "efficiency" (note that's economic efficiency, not efficient use of resources) = GOOD.

However, I'm not sure how the emission of pollutants onto other people's PROPERTY gets a free kick here.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
The problem is the companies have not been given sufficient time for upgrades:



Another problem is the EPA overstepping it's bounds by wihdrawing permits already issued. Only the Army COE can withdraw mining permits.

One case is here: http://wvgazette.com/News/201203230106

Do a search on
Quote:
EPA withdrawing permits.


On CSPAN one evevning recently there was a congressional hearing on this very issue.

In this hearing, it was brought to the forefront, by one of the Liberal representatives from one of the Northeastern states, that the Congress had wanted the power producers to sign up for government handouts to upgrade plants. Many producers turned it down on the principle of further goverment intrusion and regulations, I.E., by accepting these handouts, they would have to do the bidding at the whim of government beauracrats. Well, that ticked off both the EPA and the Liberals, so they are now gunning for the coal producers and coal plant operators.

For one, I appluad those those operators for NOT taking these government bribes.


Folks, the only way to clean up this mess is to vote for those who would reign-in these out-of-control agencies and uphold the Constitution, both in the Executive and Congressional branches.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Gosh, since October of 2011 and only one member gets this?

Putting more people on unemployment and food stamps isn't helping things much. Thanks EPA!


So are you claiming that the grid, which is stiff, is going to have 36GW or whatever less generating capacity online?

So the whole grid will go down, right?

I highly doubt it. Because those "good" businesses are then going to have lots of angry consumers on their hands.

But as shannow said (and IMO similar to the medical indstry), many-times depreciated gear is being kept online in the name of "efficiency", because there is no care or concern.

Again, people will take a dump in their drinking water if it is cheap and convenient. You can claim it is sentencing people to lost jobs and whatever else, but last I checked, unemployment is already at 20%, and as much as you want to blame the EPA, they arent the reason.

Id be all for staged implementation... But if the "strategists" didnt see the whole pollution thing coming like a freight train from the early 1990s until today (20 years forewarning?) then they must be complete idiots. In fact, I think the acid rain thing was prevalent LONG before the 90s.

More like the reality is that these "good" businesses werent trying to avoid government regulation and whatever, but rather were trusting in their ability to lobby it the other way. Forward thinking? Strategy? Nope, none of that.

Wonder how many jobs would have been created implementing the new controls in a phased approach, versus the few high-priced ones for lobbyists to kill the whole thing?