MAG 1 15W40 in 2007.5 Cummins 6.7

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GBL

Joined
May 11, 2012
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68
Location
GA
Truck Odometer: 80230 mi
Miles on oil: 7857
no makeup oil added since last oil change.
First sample ever...

70% towing 17000# trailer
30% around town - mostly stop and go

From Blackstone Labs:

Wear Metals:
Iron; 43 ppm
Chromium; 3
Al; 3
Copper; 2
Lead; 1

Contaminants:
Silicon; 4
Sodium; 8

Multi-source metals:
Moly; 59
Boron; 12

Additive metals:
Mag; 1255
Calcium; 1396
Phos; 1379
Zinc; 1743

Fuel Dilution Soot Water 0.0%

KV100 = 13.7 cSt
TBN = not checked (manufacturer says sold as 10)


Any comments are welcome.
 
I have it done at Fast Lube in Woodstock, GA for $52. That does not include the filter. I bring in my own oil filter and they put it on for me.
 
The Fe is a bit high for 7.8k miles. Yes, I see the heavy towing use, but still perhaps more than I'd like to see for that kind of exposure. It's not unsafe by any means, but I wonder if another product might be able to give a result with less wear over the same exposure? How many UOAs do you have on this brand, and what options would you be open to as alternatives?

All else looks good.

Soot is very low for an EGR engine; is it modified?

Typically, Blackstone offers universal averages; what where those for the Fe, and what were their comments about the Fe if any?


Here is the PDS on the Mag 1:
http://www.mag1.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=e4d8d99d-3280-452d-ba28-d9fe53df8ec4
Seems to be a fleet HDEO of traditional basestock/additive configuration.
 
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dnewton3,

I'd post the entire report herein but I haven't figured out how to do it...any help on such would be appreciated.

Here's Blackstone's comments:

"Universal averages show expected wear metals for the Cummins 6.7L engine after about 6,000 miles on the
oil. You’re running longer, and that explains some of the extra iron that turned up, as iron is one of the metals we read
that tracks with time on the oil. Other metals should read in the average range and they do, which is a good indication
there aren't any problems here. No contamination like coolant, water, fuel, or dirt was present, and the viscosity read as
expected. Try 10,000 miles on your next run. Iron may increase, but other metals should hold steady."

EGR and DPF were lost and Smarty Jr. programmer was found. It has worked out much better that way.

The UOA for iron was 24.

Wish I could find some CI-4....
 
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Originally Posted By: GBL
Wish I could find some CI-4....


Check offerings from Amsoil, they offer several choices in CI-4+ for pre EGR engines. I did a similar lost and found on my '07 6.0L Powerstroke, with lower need for soot control I run Amsoil HDD 5w30 with excellent results.
 
About the only advantage one could expect would be extended OCIs if the TBN was the limiting factor of the UOA. However, most people don't get anywhere the end of useful oil life; it's a moot point for just about everyone.

CI-4 won't hurt you, but it probably won't help you, either. The fears first associated with CJ-4s were far overblown. The reduction of some additives have not manifested into reality. All the majors have millions of test miles that show CJ-4 lubes can reduce wear over their predecessors.

If you just HAVE to have CI-4, then you can likely find some at farm supply centers.
 
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dnewton3,

What do you think of the following report by John Martin and Bob Patton? I'm sure you've seen it before. Is it to outdated?

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf

Also, I've looked for some CI-4 but they always say they satisfy the CJ-4 requirements. The biggest difference I see is the calcium content.
 
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I'm an engineer but a complete new comer to all this...a complete rookie.

After reading the vein you sent I'm more confused than ever...
 
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Inputs are predictors.
Results are reality.

You can know the starting roster of a baseball team, but you'll never be able to know the result until the game is played and over. Knowing who's favored does not guarantee results, but knowing the final score is proof of performance.


I'll take UOA evidence over some article's prognostication any day of the week.


Interestingly, when challenged, those who professed that CJ-4 lubes would be inferior, have no ability to find any evidence to back up those claims.


Spend some time looking over all the CJ-4 UOAs here. Do your own research. See what you find.

There is nothing wrong with reading articles, but there are times when people (even myself) get it wrong. We can make assumptions, and develop predictions, but REALITY is what counts. RESULTS are what matters. I challenge anyone to show me how the mariad of those articles have manifested into reality.

It's OK to review inputs, but trust the results. That is what really matters.
 
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Therefore, look at all the CJ-4 UOA's and make a choice....hmmm.

It's pretty hard to come up with some hard conclusions based on what I see here. There are few samples with a myriad of parameters.

The analysis opinions of the results seems to vary, also. What's important and what's not? What are we actually looking for in the analysis? I've not seen anywhere in here about when something has crossed a threshold. When is there to much iron? Or not enough calcium? There only seems to be a consensus when things look really bad.

It's certainly not clear from my ignorant view of the subject. I don't really want to make my Cummins an experiment on such. I don't like to waste money, also.

I think it's grand to see the discussion here. I'd love to also know what the engine designers think about it. I deduct that they have a pretty good factor of safety when they list their OCI. It seems rare these days to hear of the lower portion of the engine failing. The rings seem to wear much sooner and even that does not appear to be the prime reason for failure. It seems clear that oils and the corresponding specifications for such are becoming much better over time. That's encouraging.

Forgive my ignorance on all this. I'm thinking I'll stick with an OCI of about 10000 miles using whatever CJ-4 is cheapest. At $60 per oil change and filter this would only cost me an additional $0.30/mile if I do this instead of changing at 20000 miles. In doing that, the loss of savings over the next 300,000 miles would be all of $900. The change of a nickel in the cost of diesel has much more of an impact.
 
UOAs can tell you many things.

1) wear metals
2) soot / insolubles
3) additives
4) fuel dilution
5) coolant
6) vis
etc


You need to understand that UOAs are a direct view of lubricant health; they are a indirect view of equipment health (engine, gearbox, tranny, diff, etc).


Oils do many things:
1) lubricate
2) assist to control temps
3) carry/hold some contaminants until filtered or drained
4) reduce chemical reactions (rust, acids, etc)

But the GOAL of lubes, more than anything else, is to reduce wear. In fact, all those things above are pointed to that very thing. Lubrication is meant to reduce wear. Temp control (kinda like porridge - not too hot or cold) is about controlling wear. Carrying stuff to the filter(s) and holding it in suspension until drain cycles are about controlling wear. Combating acids is about reducing wear. EVERYTHING is geared towards reducing wear.

In that view, I consider wear metals to be the tell tale sign of how all those things are coming to fruition as a team.

I don't care how much Phos, how little Ca, how much more Mg or less K each oil has. I take note of, but don't bow to the feet of, TBN. I watch vis, but don't panic when an oil goes slightly out of grade.

What happens if oil goes WAY out of grade? Too think and it won't flow well into all the tight places it belongs. Too thin and it cannot provide an adequate film barrier.
What happens if soot gets too large in size or concentration? Abrasive action takes place.
What happens when lubes cannot control temps? Friction becomes massive and metals succumb to damage.
What do all these things result in?
Abnormal wear.

It is wear reduction that is the holy grail. Wear reduction is the primary motivator of all those things.

The inputs of oil (vis, soot, TBN, etc) predict how things might happen.
The outputs (wear metal counts and trends) tell you how thing ARE happening.



Want to know how some of the major OEMs see oil analysis?
Read this, and look over page 11.
Condemnation levels are the key to oil anaysls. It's not supposed to be a toy (like often seen here ...)
http://www.calrecycle.ca.gov/Publications/UsedOil/2008020.pdf

Most people condemn their oil at the OEM OCI. Nothing wrong with that, but it's often VERY conservative. Add in the anal-retentive use of synthetics by some folks in normal intervals, and you get an idea of how wasteful some oil changes can be.

Most folks get the concept of UOAs wrong. It is not to be a game of finding the lowest wear metal count. (To do that, all one has to do is ever-shorten the OCI). The goal should be to run any lube as long as possible and stay within acceptable wear metal limits.

Two concepts to watch.
1) wear metal totals (condemation limits)
2) wear rates (not a point of condemnation, but an indication of how well a lube retards wear).


This is why I made the comments about your UOA the way I did.

The Mag1 oil didn't do a "bad" job. Wear is not atrocious in your UOA; the total wear of Fe count is not too high. But, the wear rate (the ppm/mile of Fe) could be lower, and I've seen other brands do a "better" job in this regard.

To find the oil that "best" fits your use and engine, you'll need to experiment a bit.

Make sense?
 
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dnewton3,

Thanks for the info. At least I can see that somewhere there is a minor consensus amoung those in the know about different aspects of all this.

I loved the last two paragraphs on page 9 of the CA.GOV report:

"The preceding discussion shows some of the difficulties encountered when attempting to establish limits on oil condition for extended oil drain intervals. Engine manufacturers generally provide limits on only the most basic oil parameters such as viscosity, soot, and iron. Analytical laboratories have published additional recommendations for TBN, oxidation, water, and fuel. Laboratories have also established limits for nitration in gasoline and compressed natural gas (CNG) engine oils, and for sulfination in diesel oils. Meanwhile, wear metals limits are frequently unavailable, and their published values often vary.
Thus, extended drain interval proponents may need to develop unique limits for their vehicles. This also illustrates why installation of the technology on newer vehicles still under the manufacturer’s warranty is not an attractive option for fleet operators. Since maximum limits are not provided by engine manufacturers, it is not always possible to prove whether a vehicle has exceeded a safe contaminant level."

In other words....you're on your own son...take your best guess!

What you clearly state is the metal totals and wear rates are what the whole thing is about. That seems clear and I can go with that. From that I'd guess the only way we could really compare the oils is to run the motor for each oil sample under the exact same conditions for the exact same amount of time (assuming the engine is already broke in) and then compare the wear rates. Pretty tough to come up with the exact same running conditions....load, temperature, duration, etc., to compare such but I guess you could come up with some indications of how they're each working.

Here's the things that I'm wondering about....

On the wear rate side:
What wear rates would be considered adequate to make the engine last say 200,000 or even 2,000,000 miles? For example:

0ppm/1000miles of iron would indicate the engine would last infinitely (assuming all other things did, also).

Would 4ppm/1000miles of iron indicate it would last say 500,000 miles?

On the metal totals side:

Some of the CA.GOV sources say they would replace the oil at 100ppm of iron. Does that mean the iron level at the concentration begins to cause even more wear or does that still include a big factor of safety as 500ppm (a number out of thin air) is when it really begins to do damage? for example, does the ppm value damage work on logrithmic type scale where 500ppm does 50 times more damage than 100ppm or 1000 times more damage than 50ppm? Or is it linear? Does anyone know?

The more I get into this the more it continues to broaden in scope and the deeper I get...

Enquiring minds want to know....(so how do I fit into all this?)
 
Some wear comes from the OCI.

There is an older Ford/Connoco SAE study that shows correlation to slightly elevated wear occuring right after an OCI. IOW - change you oil too often and you can actually be accelerating wear. Now, I don't think that 3k mile OCIs are the cause of this, but it's a good read (been many years since I've looked it over).


This all becomes a question of ROI. What do you "need" out of your investment? How long should it last? What wear rates will get you there?

Let's look at two examples:

(Note - this is not a diesel, but it's a good example of high mileage and frequent OCIs):
http://www.knfilters.com/news/news.aspx?id=157
This is but one of many vehicles that made it to one-million miles! (Google is your friend - you can read about many of them).
Note that while he subscribed to the concept of saving money with a reusable air filter, he didn't seem to embrace the syn/bypass concept, and eschewed it for frequent OCIs.
How "good" was his engine after a million miles? I cannot tell you.
How much further could that vehicle have gone if using syn/bypass? Don't know.
How much money could he have saved if he used syn/bypass? Probably a lot more.
But ... it made it 1,000,000 miles with not a drop of synthetic in sight, nor any premium oil filters. Just good old store shelf stuff at the autoparts store. And this is NOT the only story as such; there are many vehicles that have succeeded in this approach.

OTOH - there's me. I don't accumlate many annaul miles on my 2006 Dmax; probably average about 6-7k miles a year total. If we accept a reasonable lifespan of 300,000 miles as a minimum with proper maintenance, that would take me about 40 years to get to that point. My truck would either:
1) rot from the road salt in the midwest
2) die from a wreck
3) get traded or handed down to another out of sheer boredom.


Here is the UOA from the Cummins I referred to earlier:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2179591&page=1
approaching 20k mile OCIs with dino oil and normal filter! Now, you may not be able to get there, but you won't know until you try. But - we cannot argue that he certainly isn't getting his ROI, can we? And yet his wear is very reasonable.


Point it this ...
Until you lay out your plan in a logical fassion, there is no sense in worrying about what oil is "best", etc.

Allow me to quote from our sponsor, Blackstone:
What's the best oil to use?
Ah, the million dollar question. We are an independent lab, so we don't make recommendations. It has been our experience that oil is oil, and either petroleum or synthetic-based oil will work well for just about any engine.


Come on, you're holding out on me. I should use synthetic, right?
Buddy, you should use whatever you want. Synthetic oil won't guarantee a longer engine life any more than my eating organic food will guarantee I'll live until I'm 90. We here at Blackstone generally use regular petroleum-based oil because honestly, it works just as well for us.


Now, that quote is admittedly a bit vague, but it drives a point home. You don't "need" premium products to make equipment last. What you "need" is a plan that sustains a desirable level of wear to a point that would satisfactorily maintain the equipment to a point that you expect to own it. What they are telling us is that synthetics don't make equipment last longer; synthetics last longer in service.

Will you ever own the equipment long enough to make a premium product plan pay off? Can you make the ROI pay out?

Some would argue that perhaps the 1-million mile engine might be "better" after all those miles, but at that point, I dare you to find someone who actually cares enough to give you money for it. At that mileage, you're not going to get more "trade in money" for using Amsoil ... No dealer EVER gives you more money for using synthetics when you trade in a truck. After a million miles, the only worth on a typical vehicle is sheer astonishment of the fact that it runs.

Are YOU going to run a million miles?

Wear rates and wear totals are very important to setting condemnation levels for the lubes. But, OEMs have ZERO interest in that approach. Their warranty period has long since expired. They only care about their risk, not yours. Yes, past that, you're on your own.

But we can still use those levels from the CA study to set reasonable limits and "fine tune" our approach.

For most people here, UOAs are a toy. They try to get the lowest ppm counts, rather than try to find the longest run on the lube.

The key to understand is that lifespan of the equipment and lifespan of the lubes are not mutually assured. You much manage BOTH to an end that satisfies your "needs". IOW - you don't "need" premium products to get a long life span out of your equipment; you need a good maintenance plan.
That plan can be either:
1) frequent OCIs with normal fluids and filters
2) extended OCIs with premium fluids and filters
Either one, when managed well, will get you there.
Depending upon your annual mileage and OCI plan, one or the other will cost less, but still achieve the same end result (remember the ball game example? The RESULTS are what matters most; not the inputs).
The goal should be low wear rates, managed wear totals, and the least cost product that can provide those two.


Your Cummins engine is likely to outlast your truck and/or your desire to own it. Just take good care of it and don't worry about it. Just change oil frequently, or use premium products. Differenet means to the same end.

As for your "wants", that's an emotional ride you'll have to take on your own.


I do think you're starting to understand. I think you're starting to see the "truth" from Jessup.

There is not one single perfect answer; there are many good answers that, when managed well, will provide you with what you "need".
 
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Dave,

I agree with all of your points but I still think there should be a direct correlation between observed wear rates and expected longevity.

Also, I'm not anywhere near Jesup, not that there's anything wrong with that....
 
I would agree that a lower wera rate equates to a longer lifecycle.

Here's a conceptual question (the numbers are ficticious):
If lube A can make the engine last 400k miles, but lube B makes it last 450k miles, does it really matter when you're likely to only use it for 300k miles?


Normal oils and filters can often make equipment last a LONG time. How much "long" do you need?
If you want the answer, you're going to have to experiment.
You'll have to do several successive, consistent UOAs with product X, and then do them with product Y, then Z. Etc, etc.

My suspicion is that by the time you have conclusive evidence proprietary to your unique situation, you'll have several hundred thousands of miles on it.
 
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I think you're missing part of my enquiry. I'm no longer focused herein on whether it will make 300k or 500k. I feel certain my Cummins will make these values if I use almost any CJ-4 oil and change it every 10k. I believe there's not a tremendous difference between Wally Worlds oil or Am(expensive)soil. I've already sold a couple of gassers at 250k miles that were abused (I've raised teenagers), did OCI beyond the manufacturer's recommendations, never saw a synthetic, used the cheapest oil I could find and the engines were still fine (but burning a quart between changes). I've only had one engine ever fail due to a lubrication issue and that was a 1960 VW bus.

My point is I'm certain the engineers have come up with an average wear rate (ppm) vs. longevity based on experience and analytical means.

We do this with structural fatigue analysis on airplanes and bridges. We determine how many fatigue cycles and what stress we can placed on a particular detail based on experience and mathematical reasoning. From that we back out until we determine that the potential failure rate would be say 1/1000000. We can even determine what maximum stress cycles we can put on it to make it last indefinitely. It seems clear to me that a similar analysis could be made for determining the wear life of an engine or even the different parts of an engine or drivetrain. (This would be completely separate from the fatigue aspects of its life.)

Again, there has to be a direct correlation between the wear rate and the longevity. 25 years ago I don't believe the designers would have been able to come up with some reasonable data but today I'm sure they now have a good handle on it.

I'm wondering where the oil testing companies come up with the different wear rate values they consider as cautionary or critical. I can't believe they're shooting partially in the dark based on just past experiences. (Which is how they designed engines not to long ago.) These values must have come from engineers somewhere.

If they're not doing it by such analysis, then it's long overdue...but I don't think so...
 
I'm sorry; I own you an appology. I think I missed your point. But if I understand now, you're more interested in the OEM design criteria for lifecycle, correct?

I believe the 5.9/6.7 is designed B50 at 300k miles, IIRC. I read that in an article in a diesel enthusiast magazine a year or so ago, where they toured the CMEP and did an article on it's production. B50 at 300k means that they estimate the bearings to be at 50% lifespan expectancy at 300k miles, by design estimates. Obviously, cleaner fluids would prolong that; dirtier fluids would shorten it. Their B50 estimate would be predicated on having oil that meets their cleanliness standard, but I would presume that is met by simply achieving the OEM OCI cycles with oil and filter products that meet their OEM criteria (such as the current CES 20081 for the lube, which any CJ-4 lube is likely to do; many are licensed to that standard among others).

I have a younger relative that works at the MEP as a summer intern, where that engine is made. I can tell you that they are as tight-lipped about specific design criteria, as we are here where I work (OEM of major HVAC equipment). I also used to work at Ford for 16 years. Generally, OEMs don't publically offer specific design criteria unless they are going to license a specific item to the aftermarket (such as lube specs, tire specs, filter specs, wheel specs, etc).

If you want further, detailed analysis based upon Cummins Engineering Standards, you'll probably have to contact them directly. But I doubt you'll get any such info; typically proprietary. Does info leak out occasionally? Sure it does. But the kind of info you're seeking such as actual design and test data are pretty hard to come by. I encourage your quest, but I doubt you'll get far with it, if it is specific design criteria and parameters you seek.
Yes - I'm sure Cummins fully designs the engines with all kinds of theory, data, testing (lab and real world) in a multitude of functions and applications.
No - I doubt you'll get that direct info you seek regarding wear standards. Their answer is likely to be "Maintain your vehicle according to the OEM warrantor specifications." (IE - follow your Dodge owner's manual).

I hear what you're saying (or at least I think I do, now).
I suspect we'd all like to know what contamination load would equate to any intended design lifespan for our equipment. There would be two ways to look at it; an expectation of lifespan for a directed max particulate load, or the opposite of an allowable wear load for any desired lifespan. In short, you want to know how many ppm of wear (value of "W" or wear) would equate to an average exposure in miles or hours ("T" time-exposure duration).

Unfortunately, I just don't think you'll find that out from any official source, publically. About as close as you'd get is the B50 statement, and that's kind of vague because we don't know what the contamination standards are; we only know what the inputs are (new filter and virgin lube specs).


To kind of take this back full circle, and apply it to your UOA, I'd have to say this:
For the exposure you had, and figuring that you're "average" in your use, I've seen less Fe wear from other lube products.
That does not means your engine won't last; it's just an annecdotal observation after seeing hundreds of ISB UOAs.
And it is VERY important to understand that one singular UOA does not make for statistical accuracy. It's a snapshot of one moment in time. Like I said, if you REALLY want to know how the Mag1 is doing, relative to the other engine/lube combinaions in the marketplace, you'll have to do a LOT of experimentation.

If you do locate detailed info about the design specs on the 6.7L, I'm sure we'd all appreciate you sharing what you find!
 
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Thanks Dave,

That was exactly what I was looking for and expecting.

You and Jim are definitely early risers.
 
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