Best Cleaners/Methods for Stuck Rings

[Classic Limos]

Hi everyone. This is my 1st post. I've been reading your forum for almost a year, and have utilized many of the suggestions made. I operate a vintage/classic wedding car business in Southern California. I have a 27 & 37 Packard, and a 35 & 62 Rolls. They all have original/restored engines and running gear. My goals are simple yet challenging and expensive ... keep the cars at a #2 rating cosmetically and better than a #1 rating mechanically. (if you want to see them, my web site is classiclimousines.com . Here's where you can help. My 27 Packard might have a stuck ring or two. It starts fast, runs great, but seems to be getting fuel dilution rather quickly on runs that exceed 20 miles. My oil turns black within days after an oil change. My mechanic says that a sizeable amount of "blowby" was normal for even new cars of that era. I've changed the oil around 5 times in the last 6 months, attempting to slowly get everything flushed out, with Auto-Rx in every time. It doesn't have an oil filter (Packard introduced oil filters in 1928) but I put an Amsoil bypass filter in 9 months ago. Maybe it's the Auto-Rx turning the oil black so soon. I'm afraid to leave any oil in too long with Auto-Rx in there, because I don't know if just a bypass filter can keep up with the cleaning process. What are the best cleaners to use, in what order, etc.? Should I soak the pistons lst? I have valves on each cylinder that I can open to prevent hydrolock on cranking. I am curious about the other cleaners discussed on this site, such as Lube Control & Fuel Power, Neutra #131, & Preventalube. Thanks for any imput. Also, where or how do you order Lube Control? This has to be the best kept secret in the oil additives industry.

[ July 01, 2003, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]

 

[Bill J.]

In light of the situation the vehicles would benefit greatly from a consultation with one of the site sponsors (see site sponsor links), Terry Dyson, of Dyson Analysis, who can be contacted at "[email protected]"

Highly recommended, you will not be disappointed.

 

[Rick20]

Auto-Rx has been quite successful in freeing up coked up piston rings. How much mileage have you run during the ARX process cleanings? Hopefully you do not have any cracked rings. No cleaner will help that situation.

 

[Steve S]

Could there be a carb problem ? Is the choke in proper working order? does the thermostat work? seems like stuck rings would also show up other symptoms?

 

[Classic Limos]

Bill J. - Thanks for the tip. I'll email this thread to Terry Dyson and ask him to call me.

Rick20 & Steve S - Yeh, I have been worried about a cracked ring. Of course, with my fleet, I worry about everything. I probably only have 300-400 miles on the various doses of Auto-Rx. I need to get a better handle on oil useage. When you've been changing oil as much as I have, it's hard to keep track, especially considering my 27 doesn't have a dip stick, only an overflow valve. The car has had two dry compression tests. One, 9 months ago, and one, 2 months ago (right after a new head gasket). Both came out very even on all 6 cylinders, at about 90% of original specs. I assume I have some ring wear, but not much ... just because the car runs so well. I can feel thin film of slim with my finger in the drain hole (about 1/8") on the bottom of the pan, every time I drain the oil. It isn't hard sludge, but more like thin grease laying on the bottom. It's a real chore to drop the pan, so I've been hoping for the oil changes and Auto-Rx to take care of it. As for the choke, etc., that's something I hadn't thought of. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Classic Limos]

Steve S - The carb did act up 3 months ago ... started flooding. We changed to a better 6 volt self regulating fuel pump. Also, one of the float weights had fallen off it's hinge pin and I put it back. It could be time for a carb rebuild kit.

 

[deepsquat]

I know that, for Lube Control , Molocule suggest you remove spark plugs , put 4 onces in each cylinder, turn over once by hand and let sit over night..put pugs back in and drive

 

[Dan4510]

Please forgive me, but I couldnt resist.

quote:

---

put pugs back in and drive

---

Wouldn't those little dogs object to being stuffed in a cylinder?

Dan

[ July 01, 2003, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Dan4510 ]

 

[deepsquat]

With those little noses..I think they would fit!....Hey thought of a new best selling book..."A Thousand and One things to do with a dead Pug" ...

 

[cryptokid]

mix your self a 50/50 mix of auto trans fluid and marvel mystery oil and rotate the engine till a cylinder is up with the valves closed, proceed to fill this first cylinder fully with aformentioned mix of atf/mmo. check it every 6 hours and top off as needed.

do this for about 36 hours per cylinder. you can get multipule cylinders done at once if you time the cam correctly.

i give you first hand expierence with multipule engines, mmo and atf WORKS. i have personally done this to numerous engines in which had stuck rings and chronic smoking problems out the exhaust from the stuck rings. when the rings freed up, no more smoking.

is your engine smoking out the exhaust? usually when a ring or 2 is stuck it will constantly smoke, expically on deceleration.

also to tell the condition of rings you see how long it takes for the oil to empty from the cylinder. on a good engine i have found it to barely drain at all over a period of 24 hours. on an engine with stuck rings it can in some instances drain in an hour or 2.

after the oil treatment, flog the engine as much as you can. i understand fully you probably would have reluctance in beating on an engine such as yours because of its age and value, so just beat on it as much as you are personally comfortable with.

 

[mf150]

I'd go with Red Line SI-1. One bottle and your engine will be clean and gunk free.

 

[G-MAN]

What oil (brand) and viscosity are you using in these Packards and Rolls-Royces?

 

[Classic Limos]

G-Man 11: I was originally using Amsoil HD 20w50 in all 4 cars. My thinking was I wanted a diesel rated synthetic to better deal with the acid/corrosion issues more common with cars that are not run but once/week, etc. Then I decided to go to a semi-synthetic until I was done with the Auto-Rx treatments. On the 62 Rolls (a 6.2L V-8), I'm using Torco Racing TR-4 25w60, with a little "Oil Extreme Concentrate". I achieved my best oil pressure readings with this combo, even better than Amsoil 20w50 and Lucas HD Stabilizer. This is the closest "multi" to a straight 40w. I run the same combo in my 37 packard, a "Super 8", or straight 8. On the 35 Rolls, I'm still using Amsoil HD 20w50, with the "Oil Extreme". It only has about 2500 miles on the rebuilt motor. I still have to add my prelube and full flow & bypass filters to that car. The 27 Packard has been getting a 50/50 mixture of Torco TR-4 Racing 20w50 & 25w60.

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions.

 

[Pablo]

My thoughts are:

THE BEST suggestion so far is to get the oil analyzed.

With those oils, with the low miles, with the compression readings, with the by-pass filter and with the multiple AutoRx treatments - I highly doubt you have "an oil problem". (Well my only oil thought is you should go with a 15W-40, rather than going 50, 60...thicker is NOT better)

EDIT=> Forgot to mention: Lose the additives. Oil doesn't need those, and just are complicating the picture.

It is possible that you have a ring issue when hot but that seems remote.

I think you have a fuel problem, too rich - or the timing/cooling system is not getting the oil temp hot enough.

Tell me about the cooling system. Thermostat is reliable?

Also, what is oil sump capacity?

[ July 02, 2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Pablo ]

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Classic,

If you are having a dry reading of consistent pressure across the board, Then chances are the rings are not the problem. Engines such as this was designed back then with straight wt oils. The problem with multi viscosity oils are they are generally designed to work in tight tolerances and allow for better flow where shearing the oil down is needed. This is a double edged sword when it comes to older vehicles. Going with a thicker mulit viscosity oil is fine but I'd recommend going to the intended designed oil which in those days were the straight 40wt. This will reduce your oil consumption, create a better seal around the rings and reduce any blow-by affect to minimal amounts. Synth's is not needed to accomplish this as that engine will not put near the stress on that oil which a synth oil is designed to handle so a good mineral oil will serve you better IMO.

As for the filter, I'd recommend that you pull that back off. Way back when fram(If memory serves that's who started the after market filters for cars), introduced the after market filter system for those old cars, they tapped in on the oil galley and actually created problems with the oil flow and caused excessive bearing wear. Not knowing exactly how you have the after market filter tied in, you may be restricting oil flow to the same areas and again, this system wasn't designed to handle filter restrictions at that time. Of course back then, oil's didn't carry detergents and caused a lot of sludge build up and when they changed to a detergent oil, they then lost a lot of engines, but with now aday oils, all have the detergents and with proper oil changes and a good mineral oil, you really don't have to worry about filtration. The black color from the oil isn't due to auto rx so much but most likely from the nitration from the existing blow-by past the rings due to the lack of sealing around the rings with the thinner oil. No oil filter will filter this out, bypass or otherwise, so if you'll start back at the beginning, get things as they were designed, and approach this with the simple stuff to begin with, you may find that it's not as serious as it may sound.

Contact me if you'd like more suggestions and personal recommendations on what else can help. BTW, I'm totally with Pablo on losing the additives as this will not help but promote other issues when it comes to oil's and basic chemistry compatibility.

904-591-0622
bob

 

[Classic Limos]

Pablo - You might be onto something. This engine runs cool. Around town, it runs around 140-150f. With a full load of people at 45-50mph cruise speed, it runs around 150-160f. The thermostat is a new 160 degree. The water pump was rebuilt 2 years ago. The radiator is 2 years old. The coolant is the waterless Evans cooling system (I like it because of the high boil point of 375 degrees and no rust). My oil pressure gauge reads from 0-50. When I start her up, it runs around 32-34 (even 30 at idle, which is a very slow idle). 25 pounds is exactly in the middle of the guage, so I assume that is what Packard wanted the pressure to at least run at. On my last long run, after 20 miles or so, I noticed the pressure gradually drop from 32-34 to 26-28 and finally 23-25, while the temp gauge pretty much stayed at 160f.

As for viscosity, the Packard old timers prefer 40w for all the "straight 8's" and 30w or 40w for the "sixes", for the Southern California climate. I'm never sure about viscosity, because these older engines were made before we had "multi's", and their tolerances were not nearly as tight as they are today. I'm told by Penrite Oil (they're from the UK & specialize in vintage and classic car oil formulations) that 20w50 is the closest cross equivilent to 30w and 20w60 is the closest to 40w. Years ago, Rolls Royce changed their oil guidelines from straight weight to 20w50 for almost all their engines, old and new.

This car takes 6 quarts, plus 1 for the pre-lube and 1 for the bypass filter. In addition, the owner's manual says you can add an additional 4 quarts above the full line for touring, etc. This tends to support my mechanic's opinion that this engine, came with "blow-by" somewhat built in. He claims they were very concerned at that time with piston scoring, etc.

The bottom line is, the car runs great, but I just don't like seeing good oil turn black so quickly. I wish I could put a full flow filter on it, but no one seems to think that is possible.

 

[Classic Limos]

Bob - Thanks for that analysis. I will be giving you a call. Dan

 

[Terry]

Dan, didn't I talk to you last year about oil extreme ?

Generally for cleaning and ring unsticking ( if that is even the issue ) Bob and others are going to support Nuetra, Odis LC/FP, Frank Auto-RX, cryptokid mmo and atf...ah!,

and everyone will pitch in with what in their opinion they honestly know to work.

Pablo and Bill J are right,
Bottom line is analyze the engine oil unless you are ready to tear into that monster. Cheap look with no products being recommended.

A good spectro and consult with you or your mechanic will narrow the variables here so we can fix THE problem not shotgun a solution.

Since there is no full flow oil filtration I agree with the Auto-RX use and what you may be seeing is RX acting like a liquid filter trapping blowby or fuel residue. All a guess until I see a report.

I love Packards !

 

[sprintman]

Classic why such a cold thermostat (160F)? Why not say a 180F? A hotter engine runs better IMO. Also Penrite specialise in oils for older vehicles like your Packard/Rolls. Available from would you believe Classic Auto Lubes Tyler texas

[ July 02, 2003, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[JohnBrowning]

I normaly would not recoend this because most DIY'er do not own one. IF your tech works on alot of vintage cars their is one piece of equipment he should have in his tool box that most would not have. He should have a fiber optic bore scope. I bought one when I was an aviation technology major. It comes in very handy. Between Terry's analysis and other uninvasive tech.'s it should not be needed to unbotton the engine. He can see the condition of the cylinder walls and lower block with all the covers on. Terry will be able to include or elimanate any oil or oil contamination issues that might indicate wear and simple things like vaccum and compression checks can confirm the general health of the engine. A vaccum check is actualy more usful then compression check but it is seldom used today.

If I had to guess I would guess that the carberator is not functioning properly. I would check exhaust gas temps and air to fuel ratio. I would also check the magneto and make sure that it is with in spec.!!!!

P.S. Does this have manualy adjustable timeing?? How about mixture?? If so you might consider adjusting the timeing based on vaccum. I doubt that with todays fuels and additives that know would be to big a problem but this is just a guess!

[ July 02, 2003, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]