WIX Filter Failure

[mechanicx]

Towards the middle of this video FRAM talks about collapsed center tubes caused by a "malfunctioning filter bypass valve" or a combination of both a "malfuntioning bypass valve and pressure regulator valve". And filter can blow out from malfunctioning pressure regulator valves. If you listen it's said that a malfunctioning pressure regulator will "have equal pressure in all parts of the system" and if pressure is high enough can cause filter can and gasket blow out..



And look here, http://www.fram.com/sites/default/f/uploads/en/overpressurized.pdf

Quote:
Figure 2 shows the system operating with the
regulating valve stuck in the closed position.
Pressure builds up equally on all components.


And here, http://www.fram.com/sites/default/f/uploads/en/collapsedcentertubes.pdf

Quote:
Automotive lube oil filters are designed to withstand
differential pressures significantly greater than those
experienced under normal operating conditions without
collapsing. Therefore, when an element has collapsed,
it is usually the result of a “sticky” or otherwise malfunctioning
by-pass valve.
In some instances, a “sticky” filter by-pass valve alone
is not enough to collapse a filter.


In all their material mentioning filter collapse a malfunction or sticking bypass valve is blamed. Not just the pressure regulaotr.

 

[ZeeOSix]

But before the pressure can build up equally in all parts of the oiling system, the flow must first go through the filter. So if that initial inrush flow and viscosity is too much for the bypass, the filter will be damaged. It's a highly dynamic situation, not a static situation after the entire system has been pressurized like you are thinking.

The guts of the filter can get destroyed during the dynamic part of the process ... and the base gasket leaking and can damaged (bulging, leaks) after the whole system has pressurized into a static condition.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Yes I'm saying the same thing except that I'm saying that the bypass which feeds into the inside of the filter element would for the most part equalize internal pressure to what's outside the filter element IF it is sized to flow the same as the filter inlet.


That's the crux of the question. Can the filter inlet allow greater flow than a bypass event can handle. If yes, you get catastrophic failure. If no, then something else is happening here.

Here, by flow, I'm referring to the mathematical (calculus) definition of flux, to eliminate any ambiguity here when it comes to pressure and volume.

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Bypasses may or may not be restrictive, but just saying higher oil pressure makes them restrictive doesn't seem correct.


I agree. The key is whether the circuit before the bypass allows more or less flow than the bypass can handle. I suppose this also depends upon how much force the oil pump can generate in a pump relief failure.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Garak
The key is whether the circuit before the bypass allows more or less flow than the bypass can handle. I suppose this also depends upon how much force the oil pump can generate in a pump relief failure.


Theoretically, a tight PD oil pump will put out more and more pressure with increase flow resistance until something fails. If you completely blocked off the outlet so no flow could go anywhere, it would blow itself up or stall if the input power wasn't enough to keep it turning (ie, hydraulic lock-up).

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx

And here, http://www.fram.com/sites/default/f/uploads/en/collapsedcentertubes.pdf


Already posted that way back ... nothing new.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...092#Post2656092

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
In all their material mentioning filter collapse a malfunction or sticking bypass valve is blamed. Not just the pressure regulaotr.


So I guess the guy in the video was right then ... the WIX was junk with a failed bypass valve. And that sucker cost 4X what the FRAM did.

 

[mechanicx]

Someone else claimed FRAM said bypasses will not protect the filter center-tube from collapse during excessive oil pressure, so I posted the video, links and quotes showing that's not what FRAM really said.

And regarding the guy claiming the WIX filter failed, my belief is it probably never failed as he claimed. Do I have to (re)explain every elementary/obvious thing here?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
And regarding the guy claiming the WIX filter failed, my belief is it probably never failed as he claimed. Do I have to (re)explain every elementary/obvious thing here?


I'm betting you're in the minority on that - and it's not that "elementary", as you've missed some key technical points yourself.

You never answer back on issues you quite don't grasp ... like PD oil pump flow vs pressure relationship, their relief valves and how certain flow & viscosity conditions can create large PSID across the element even if the bypass valve is wide open and sized the same as the inlet & outlet.

Like I said, If you disabled your pump's pressure relief valve totally, and fired up the engine when the temp was 30~32 F (and who knows what weight oil the guys was running - could have been 20w-50), and revved it up some, the oil filter element would most likely get damaged to some degree, if not totally given the right conditions as shown in the video.

And just because nobody like FRAM or whoever with technical info didn't specifically come out and say a bypass valve couldn't save a filter if an oil pump does go unregulated doesn't mean it can't happen. Too bad Motorking couldn't chime in here ... he could probably add some good technical info on this whole issue.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Theoretically, a tight PD oil pump will put out more and more pressure with increase flow resistance until something fails. If you completely blocked off the outlet so no flow could go anywhere, it would blow itself up or stall if the input power wasn't enough to keep it turning (ie, hydraulic lock-up).


That's kind of what I would expect. Assuming the oil is at a temperature that it could be pumped, there would be no reason for the oil pump to stop unless it failed or the source of power failed.

We've had high pressure pumps at one of my businesses experience catastrophic failures when the outlet valve was closed, when obviously it should not have been.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/398/engine-oil-filters

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/398/engine-oil-filters


From the link:
"In some instances, a sticky filter bypass valve alone is not enough to collapse the center tube or element. The oil pump pressure regulating valve may also stick in the closed position, which results in increased pressure and oil flow through the filter. Although this condition may be only momentary, it can quickly collapse the center tube if the bypass valve fails to, or is unable to, relieve the excessive differential pressure."

 

[mechanicx]

But they are not outright saying the reason the bypass valve would fail to relieve pressure differential is due to a properly working bypass valve being restrictive to excessive oil pressure from a malfunctioning pressure regulator.

This article is very similar to previously posted articles. Reading the entirety of the article it's clear they're saying to check for a sticky bypass valve and pressure regulator valve.

Quote:
The malfunction of the filter bypass and oil pump pressure regulating valves and the subsequent collapse of the center tube or element may not cause noticeable damage. However, at times it can result in a catastrophic failure of the engine caused by the seizure of a piston, connecting rod or main crankshaft bearings among other failure possibilities.

The malfunction of filter bypass valves and pressure regulating valves has been traced to:
•Sticky surfaces caused by cold, highly viscous oil
•Oil contaminated by excessive condensation, coolant or oxidation
•Neglect - extended oil drain and filter change intervals
•Carbon grit that temporarily jams a valve
•Sudden acceleration of the engine with any of the above conditions.

Discovery of a filter with a collapsed center tube or element calls for the inspection of the bypass valve, if not built into the filter, and the oil pump pressure regulating valve, plus a review of the engine’s performance and maintenance history.


Malfunction bypass valve is repeatedly mentioned and no where is it stated that the bypass is restrictive just because the pressure regulator valve sticks and allows excessive oil pressure.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
But they are not outright saying the reason the bypass valve would fail to relieve pressure differential is due to a properly working bypass valve being restrictive to excessive oil pressure from a malfunctioning pressure regulator.


But they are saying it's possible the bypass valve may not be able to handle the increased flow from a malfunctioning pump pressure regulator. As I've discussed many times, there are certain conditions that could over come the capacity of the bypass valve to keep the PSID below a dangerous level.

Bottom line ... it's possible a bypass valve can not handle every situation of a run-away oil pump. That's really not hard to swallow, is it?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Malfunction bypass valve is repeatedly mentioned and no where is it stated that the bypass is restrictive just because the pressure regulator valve sticks and allows excessive oil pressure.


When they say it's "unable to relieve the excessive differential pressure", they pretty much mean it can't flow enough to keep the PSID down. And they are specifically talking about a case where the pump pressure regulator has failed.

 

[yonyon]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: mechanicx

And here, http://www.fram.com/sites/default/f/uploads/en/collapsedcentertubes.pdf


Already posted that way back ... nothing new.



I believe that was mechanicx pointing out my error.