Honda failed CA emissions... any advice?

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Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Techron Concentrated Fuel System cleaner. Do two treatments as directed in instructions.

Also have you changed the air filter, and replaced the distributor cap and rotor, also make sure to clean out any oil residue from the throttle body and air intake snorkel,

ONE MORE THING.... ARE THE EGR port passages plugged?

Hey, thanks for the info. I ran some Techron fuel system cleaner about a month ago. The distributor, cap, and rotor were all replaced less than 2000 miles ago. I cleaned out the throttle body and intake hose. Air filter was replaced less than a month ago. This particular motor (D15b1) with manual transmission does not come equipped with an EGR system.
 
Originally Posted By: teambeechstreet
He advised me filling up with 87, dumping in a bottle of Amsoil Fuel Performance Improver, driving it to empty, then filling it back up with 87 and getting it tested again.


I'm going to place a big order for Amsoil PI if this works. Keep us updated.
 
Clean up the EGR passages even though it will affect NOx more than HC, you're looking for 4-5 small aluminum plugs on the intake manifold, drill them out carefully to keep shavings out and spray a good amount of carb cleaner/top engine cleaner into them. Also, adjust your valves too.
 
I think he's established that he doesn't have EGR. I would double check the vacuum and mechanical advance in the distributor because if you are getting too much advance it could cause the high HC and NOX. It looks like you came close to passing, just slightly high HC. Anything that causes combustion temperatures or pressure too be excessive will cause the engine to have high NOx and likely increase HC. It's also possible that cat is just too cheap and isn't working well. Have you changed the O2 sensor?
 
the o2 pecentage is very low. Looks like the cat is doing his job. High HC, is it miss fire?
 
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OP needs to summarize what has been done so far to the vehicle. I vaguely recall him mentioning burning substantial amount of oil. If that recollection is true, it is going to be tough to pass the stricter CA emission test.
 
This may not be the answer you wanted, Teambeechstreet, but a viable Plan B for this 1990 Honda is.....retire it. I'm not sure of the current status of the state program (sometimes funds temporarily run out), but you may be able to retire your older California registered car by selling it to any of a few sanctioned junkyards and receive a check for either $1,000 or $1,500 in return. For some older, low-value cars that are insisting on expensive repairs to pass smog (I'm not suggesting this would necessarily include yours), this is the best option.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/avrp/avrp.htm
 
I failed the sniff test on a Honda (CRX) I had a couple vehicles ago - after I changed oil, new filters, plugs, wires, cap & rotor etc. It didn't seem to run right after the maintenance I had just done and figures it then failed smog test.
My case, the book I had, had a typo on setting the timing. Sure took me a few evenings under the hood, was giving up, then don't know why I checked in another book and found the two books didn't agree. Made a couple phone calls, got one back to confirm the one I used was wrong. Ran better when I did it by the other book. Had something to do with the dist. vac, advance - can't remember if it was to plug the hose on setting or what, and the actual timing spec.
Anyway it ran like it should - but then it still failed the sniffer - grrrr
Later I found a connector got knocked off (disconnected) from under a box that had electrical and vacumm stuff in it.
Passed sniff test after that - dunno what difference the connector made (couldn't tell driving it)but it pass after it was re-connected.
 
Originally Posted By: teambeechstreet
Update:

Per the advice of a smog tech, I replaced the coolant temp sensor and patched a tiny vacuum leak @ the throttle body. Got the cat really really hot and had it tested again. Passes no problem @ 15mph. At 25mph NOX is below average, CO is below average, but HC barely goes over MAX (MAX is 74 and I got a 79). With an almost empty tank of gas, I dumped in two quarts of denatured alcohol and had it tested again. Results were AWFUL!!! The HCs jumped up to 250, NOX to 600 (from 150), and CO went up to .70 (from .10). The smog guy called me stupid for even trying the denatured alcohol trick. He advised me filling up with 87, dumping in a bottle of Amsoil Fuel Performance Improver, driving it to empty, then filling it back up with 87 and getting it tested again.

This is driving me bonkers...



Wish I had replied before you put the isopropyl in. Alcohol reduces the combustion temperature. This is good for NOx, which forms at high temperatures, but bad for complete combustion of hydrocarbons. You want the heat in there to deal with that. The Rh reduction catalyst in the converter should take care of the NOx. Now you need to just lean out (not too lean, else youll raise NOx again) and try again.

A $180 cat is also likely not doing you favors (is it CARB approved)? My 91 BMW was failing NOx only, determined it to be a bad converter. Put in a generic and learned my lesson real quick - the numbers with the new generic were within a few ppm of the failed one on the NOx. It is really just a band-aid to pass, not the correct fix.
 
Originally Posted By: Errtt
I failed the sniff test on a Honda (CRX) I had a couple vehicles ago - after I changed oil, new filters, plugs, wires, cap & rotor etc. It didn't seem to run right after the maintenance I had just done and figures it then failed smog test.
My case, the book I had, had a typo on setting the timing. Sure took me a few evenings under the hood, was giving up, then don't know why I checked in another book and found the two books didn't agree. Made a couple phone calls, got one back to confirm the one I used was wrong. Ran better when I did it by the other book. Had something to do with the dist. vac, advance - can't remember if it was to plug the hose on setting or what, and the actual timing spec.
Anyway it ran like it should - but then it still failed the sniffer - grrrr
Later I found a connector got knocked off (disconnected) from under a box that had electrical and vacumm stuff in it.
Passed sniff test after that - dunno what difference the connector made (couldn't tell driving it)but it pass after it was re-connected.


That's a good point, make sure you are doing the timing procedure correctly.
 
I appreciate all of the replies, everyone! Thank you! Please keep them coming! Any help is great!

Originally Posted By: Vikas
OP needs to summarize what has been done so far to the vehicle. I vaguely recall him mentioning burning substantial amount of oil. If that recollection is true, it is going to be tough to pass the stricter CA emission test.


The car does lose some oil. It has a pretty bad leak from the oil pan and does burn some oil, but never blows blue or black smoke. I got this car from a buddy back in January of 2011 and smogged it without even changing the oil. It passed easily on HCs & CO, but was near the max limit on NOX. I drove it around for a thousand miles or so like that.

About 5000 miles ago (8-9 months ago) I replaced the fuel filter, NGK spark plugs, PCV valve, and oxygen sensor.

About 2000 miles ago the ignition distributor kicked the bucket and I replaced it with a new distributor that included cap & rotor. While I had the distributor replaced, I also replaced the ignition wires with brand new OEM NGK wires. The timing was set to 18 degrees (as suggested by alldatapro.com). I also replaced the engine air filter at the same time. I took this opportunity to also check for vacuum leaks by using a smoke machine tool designed for finding leaks... no leaks were found!

I took it in for smog this May and it failed horribly, which is when I posted up this thread. The smog tech suggested a new cat. I drained out the engine oil (which had Kreen in it) and refilled with MaxLife 10w-30. I also dumped in a bottle of Chevron Techron Fuel Injector cleaner. I then ran some Seafoam through a vacuum line. I did about 500 miles worth of driving over a weekend and then had the catalytic converter replaced. That same day I replaced the spark plugs again with the OEM NGKs and replaced the oxygen sensor again with the OEM NTK sensor (just in case it was damaged by the Seafoam treatment).

I took it back in for a pre-smog. Nox was now within spec for the 15mph & 25mph tests, but HCs got worse and CO stayed the same.

I talked to another smog tech and he suggested replacing almost everything that had to do with the cooling system. The radiator was replaced just before I bought the car, so I replaced the thermostat & thermostat gasket, radiator cap (it failed a pressure test), coolant temp sensor (from engine to ECU), and the coolant (with Honda brand coolant).

I also had a vacuum leak test performed again. A small leak was found at the throttle body. Two gaskets were replaced and also used some exhaust sealant to patch it up real nice. Tested for vacuum leaks after and nothing was detected. I pulled the spark plugs again and found two of them were slightly white while the other two were normal looking. Since I had an extra set of plugs sitting around (shoot they are only $1.49/plug) I swapped in ANOTHER set of new plugs all gapped to OEM specs. I also had a mechanic check the timing again (18 degrees) and it was perfect.

Stopped by for another pre-test after driving the car really hard for an hour. Everything easily passed at 15mph. NOX and CO also did well on the 25mph test, but HCs barely failed! I retarded the timing to 16 degrees per the suggestion of the smog tech. HCs actually went up a couple points. I tried the denatured alcohol trick which only made things worse.

Today I dumped in half a bottle of the Amsoil Fuel PI and filled the tank with 87. I am now going to check compression on all the cylinders and have a valve adjustment done.

I have thought about retiring the car for cash, but I recently put a lot of money into this car via a new clutch, new trailing arm bushings, new shocks, new rear lower control arms + bushings, a new brake master cylinder, new rear brakes, and new tires. The car gets 32-33mpg and drives amazingly well. I refuse to give up on this thing an will replace the engine if it comes down to it.

I again thank everyone for their time and help. The BITOG forums have helped me save another car from the crusher a couple years back and I have a feeling I can save this one as well.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2


A $180 cat is also likely not doing you favors (is it CARB approved)? My 91 BMW was failing NOx only, determined it to be a bad converter. Put in a generic and learned my lesson real quick - the numbers with the new generic were within a few ppm of the failed one on the NOx. It is really just a band-aid to pass, not the correct fix.

The shop I took it to for the cat replacement has nothing but excellent online reviews. I did ask the tech if the cat was CARB approved and he said "of course" but I honestly have no idea how to prove if it is or not. I got under the car to look at it and it looks brand spanking new on the outside.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Maybe it's time for thicker oil if the oil consumption is 1qt. every 500 miles...

I do have a jug of Maxlife 10w40 sitting around. Perhaps some 20w50?
 
Originally Posted By: teambeechstreet
Originally Posted By: JHZR2


A $180 cat is also likely not doing you favors (is it CARB approved)? My 91 BMW was failing NOx only, determined it to be a bad converter. Put in a generic and learned my lesson real quick - the numbers with the new generic were within a few ppm of the failed one on the NOx. It is really just a band-aid to pass, not the correct fix.

The shop I took it to for the cat replacement has nothing but excellent online reviews. I did ask the tech if the cat was CARB approved and he said "of course" but I honestly have no idea how to prove if it is or not. I got under the car to look at it and it looks brand spanking new on the outside.



CARB certified converters should be stamped/etched with a CARB number (D-xxx-xx). Here's the Magnaflow converter I installed in my Legend back in 2010.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2095575

It's illegal in CA to sell or install uncertified converters. I have heard and have experienced some inspection shops confirming that a new converter has the required ID numbers: I replaced a converter in my old Lumina last year. While in the waiting area, I heard the tech jacking up the car and shortly thereafter, overheard him reciting the exemption number to someone on the phone. I'm assuming he was confirming the converter and CARB numbers were listed with the State air Nazis.

A $180 converter may not do the trick, but a $214 one worked for me. We'll see how well it does come this November when it's due for a re-test.

BTW, the converter was known to be bad. I was driving with an intermittent ignition miss for quite a while. Unburned fuel eventually killed it.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2021089&page=1
 
So I checked the CARB number on the cat and it checked out fine with the state number.

I replaced the PCV "flametrap/oil catch can" black box thing along with the hose running to the actual PCV valve.

I did a compression test and the numbers were 160 across the board. Nominal is 180 and minimum is 135, so compression seems OK for a 250K motor.

I noticed an intermittent misfire when in neutral and keeping the revs under 2500 RPMs. If I hold the RPMs @ 2500 for about 15 seconds, a bit of white smoke will begin spitting out of the exhaust. The smoke then comes outs in pulses when at idle, then at the other times no smoke will come out at all. The exhaust smells really, really strong. Not like rotten eggs or coolant, but just really strong exhaust fumes.

I replaced the fuel injectors and injector gaskets. Also replaced the fuel pressure regulator. No difference.

I've also gone through two tanks of gas with Amsoil Fuel Performance Improver.

Gas mileage is still the same at 32-33 mpg. I'm going sorta nuts trying to figure this out...
 
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