Engine noise after oil filter replacement

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jbtierney15

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Hello All - Need assistance with this one. I have 2008 Saturn Outlook. It's been pretty reliable since I bought it in Sept. 2008. The engine began making noise so I took it to a trusted source and they informed me it would need to be taken to the dealer since it was still under warranty (53K miles). I took it to a Chevy dealer and after providing sound maintenance records for 3 1/2 years i was told I needed a new engine and that GM would not honor their powertrain warranty because an after market oil filter was used (CHAMP PH48). After relaying that news the Service Manager handed me this bulletin as the reason: #10-06-01-003A: Diagnostic Information on internal Engine Noise or Damage After Oil Filter Replacement.

They have quoted 7600 as the price to replace the engine.

Can GM refuse to honor a warranty because I did not use their parts?
Do you think they refused the warranty just because they saw a non-GM oil filter and pulled that notice as back-up?

Dose anybody have good info as to whether this filter (CHAMP PH48) is considered OEM or non-OEM?? And where they are manufactured? I fear that if they are considered non-OEM and made in China, Thailand, etc then they may [censored] and i'm screwed here.

I know GM, etc can 'recommend' that only 'Genuine GM Parts' be used, but can they really dishonor the warranty? The list of vehicles on the bulletin is amazing.

I need any advice I can get.

-jbt
 
You need a lawyer. You are getting the "why we love GM so much" run around. You may need to contact the filter manufacturer and ask them for a statement regarding what specifications the filter meets. If they say it "meets or exceeds GM spec such and such" , GM will have a hard time denying the warranty coverage. Most judges will understand. Remember, saying "no" to you is cheap if you never press the issue. Costing them money to defend a lawsuit makes them look at things a bit differently. Gotta pay a lawyer... what are you going to get without one? You could try the Better Business Bureau, and your state attorney general's consumer protection office, but I think I know where you will end up.
What's wrong with the engine, is it even oil filter related?
I think you have a filter from a good company. The real irony would be if they MAKE filters for GM as OEM. That will get the stealer hack going abada abada.
First thing to do is contact the GM factory rep, who has a say in what get fixed at their cost. Google General Motors, I am sure their "consumer friendly" website will tell you how to contact them about a problem of this kind. Will you ever buy another GM car? They already expect you won't, and don't care.
 
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Sounds like this is a Champion Labs filter. While I do not think they are as good as a WIX or Baldwin filter, they should be decent and appropriate for any vehicle. Was it a filter model recommended for your vehicle? That is the first thing to confirm. If so, it looks better for you. Others here will be able to give you way more info/advice than I can.
 
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Yikes.

Formally, I believe that the burden of proof is on General Motors to demonstrate that the use of aftermarket parts has damaged the vehicle. Yes, if the Champ filter damaged the engine, General Motors is not responsible for the damages. Ideally, you'd be able to get Champ to cover the bill, but that is not likely.

What's just as unlikely, in my opinion, is that your engine was damaged by the filter. At this point, the very first thing I would do is get a lawyer, or at least consult somebody who has gone though this before. Photos, documentation, all that are critical to your case. The service writer at the dealership has many resources at his disposal to "coach" him along on what to say to you and what not to say. You need to have the same ammunition.

In short, yes, they can dishonor the warranty if it can be demonstrated that the aftermarket part damaged the engine. Again, I doubt they can demonstrate that at this point, and really need to be pressed harder, but in an informed and educated manner. Thus, my recommendation for a lawyer or other person experienced at this.
 
If it can be shown that the filter damaged the engine and the filter was recomended for that car/engine, then Champion may be pushed to cover the damage.
 
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Sounds to me like GM is trying to weasel out of repairing or replacing the engine. The burden of proof is on GM and the dealership to prove without a doubt that the Champ filter is the cause of the engine problem. If they are able to prove it, then it is Champ's responsibility to take care of the repairs. In either case, you may need an attorney to help you on this. Sounds like a bunch of baloney to me and they are just trying to rip you off.

GM used to have Area Service Managers (AVM's) that were responsible for a number of dealerships in a given territory or area. If the dealership won't help you, tell them you want to speak with their AVM. If they give the runaround about that, then contact GM directly. I don't know the phone number for Saturn, or if they even still have one now that Saturn is out if business. Maybe try calling 1-800-222-1020, that is the general number for Chevrolet, they may be able to get your complaints to the right person or office. Or maybe go on www.gm.com and send an email about it.

I always thought the OEM GM AC Delco filters were made by Champ anyway. Maybe I am wrong on that. I do know the dealer is wrong trying to blame engine problems on an oil filter just because it is not OEM? Please. Read up on the Manguson-Moss Warranty Act too. Don't let them screw you on this. You have rights, but be prepared for a long and uphill battle. Let us know how it goes.
 
To the OP-

Read up on the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. This link has some info. The MMWA is enforced by the FTC.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/alerts/alt192.shtm
Quote:
Will using 'aftermarket' or recycled parts void my warranty?

No. An 'aftermarket' part is a part made by a company other than the vehicle manufacturer or the original equipment manufacturer. A 'recycled' part is a part that was made for and installed in a new vehicle by the manufacturer or the original equipment manufacturer, and later removed from the vehicle and made available for resale or reuse. Simply using an aftermarket or recycled part does not void your warranty. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act makes it illegal for companies to void your warranty or deny coverage under the warranty simply because you used an aftermarket or recycled part. Still, if it turns out that the aftermarket or recycled part was itself defective or wasn't installed correctly, and it causes damage to another part that is covered under the warranty, the manufacturer or dealer has the right to deny coverage for that part and charge you for any repairs. The FTC says the manufacturer or dealer must show that the aftermarket or recycled part caused the need for repairs before denying warranty coverage.


Long story short - they can't deny warranty because you used an aftermarket filter. But if they can prove the filter failed or performed improperly and caused the damage, they can deny it.


Here's what Champ says about their filters

http://www.champlabs.com/content/oil-filters
Quote:
The Champ Filter Advantage

* Wide Selection Of Filters Providing Broad Coverage
* High Filtering Efficiency For Maximum Performance
* Continuous New Product and Service Innovations
* OE Warranties remain in affect when Champ filters are used


Champion Labs is one of the major filter manufacturers, and make filters for many, many different companies.

I would also recommend talking to a lawyer. I'm just totally guessing here, but oil filter failures are very, very rare, especially a failure that would destroy an engine. I would think the engine would be making noise long before significant damage was caused.

Perhaps the dealer just doesn't want to replace the engine and is using the aftermarket filter as an out? Have they really given you any proof that the filter caused the failure, or just said "yeah, we're not replacing the engine because you used an aftermarket filter."

How did the filter fail? Did it leak or come loose and allow the oil to drain out? Or are they claiming something internally in the filter failed and damaged the engine?

Also, last I checked, Champion Labs actually made the AC Delco filters. I just searched and there are posts from last year saying Champion Labs makes AC Delco filters. I don't know if that has changed recently or not.
 
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It's ludicrous to assert legal claims when the vehicle owner doesn't even know what happened yet. It is entirely possible that the aftermarket filter did fail, thus destroying the engine. It happens.

But it is VERY rare. Immediate professional legal advice is a necessity here, as "long and uphill" are probably understatements as to the difficulty this owner will encounter.

And a note to the GM bashers who inevitably appear in these threads: This is most definitely not a GM problem, it's a stealership issue!
 
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Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I wonder if they have positively determined that the aftermarket filter element caused the damage.


That was my thought too ... how does the dealer know the oil filter caused the engine's issues?
 
Champ makes almost all of the AC Delco product for GM. So it will be hard to claim foul, but it happens all the time. GM looks for a reason to deny as a first step. It's highly unlikely the filter caused the damaged. Unless you blew it off and locked up the motor, 99.9% of the time...the filter is not the culprit.

As above...get an attorney as that will get the attention of your stealership and GM. Once a definitive answer on your engine troubles can be made...and if the filter is truly at fault, Champ should warranty your engine.

Good luck!
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
And a note to the GM bashers who inevitably appear in these threads: This is most definitely not a GM problem, it's a stealership issue!


YES, THANK YOU!

Even their (the bashers' faves) "perfect" car companies' stealerships will try the SAME [censored] thing when confronted with warranty repair (sometimes even MORE vehemently, since the general populace falsely believes that those cars ARE 'perfect and infallible', and the crooks play on that fallacy to the max).
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: jbtierney15
Hello All - Need assistance with this one. I have 2008 Saturn Outlook. It's been pretty reliable since I bought it in Sept. 2008. The engine began making noise so I took it to a trusted source and they informed me it would need to be taken to the dealer since it was still under warranty (53K miles). I took it to a Chevy dealer and after providing sound maintenance records for 3 1/2 years i was told I needed a new engine and that GM would not honor their powertrain warranty because an after market oil filter was used (CHAMP PH48). After relaying that news the Service Manager handed me this bulletin as the reason: #10-06-01-003A: Diagnostic Information on internal Engine Noise or Damage After Oil Filter Replacement.

They have quoted 7600 as the price to replace the engine.

Can GM refuse to honor a warranty because I did not use their parts?
Do you think they refused the warranty just because they saw a non-GM oil filter and pulled that notice as back-up?

Dose anybody have good info as to whether this filter (CHAMP PH48) is considered OEM or non-OEM?? And where they are manufactured? I fear that if they are considered non-OEM and made in China, Thailand, etc then they may [censored] and i'm screwed here.

I know GM, etc can 'recommend' that only 'Genuine GM Parts' be used, but can they really dishonor the warranty? The list of vehicles on the bulletin is amazing.

I need any advice I can get.

-jbt




The Champ PH48 is the correct filter for your vehicle by application and also crosses over from the OE AC Delco filter # of PF48. You have used the correct filter for your vehicle. That is the most important thing you have going for yourself. You used the right filter so GM or Champ have no grounds to weasel out of fixing this for using the wrong part.

By law( Magnuson-Moss Act )GM can NOT refuse to honor your warranty JUST because you used a non-GM filter. They have to actually prove that the filter caused the damage to do so. Using a non GM filter is not a valid or legal reason to deny coverage.

If the filter itself caused the engine damage however then GM is not responsible for the damage and CAN refuse to cover the repair under warranty. They have to show it was the filter that did it though. In that scenario Champ is on the hook as long as the filter was used for it's intended purpose, which it has been, and you didn't do something crazy like go 3 years and not change the filter.

As long as you ran a normal OCI using the correct filter by application then either GM or Champ owes you an engine. You may have to go to court and fight for it however.

As to the TSB you refer to. Unless GM can show that they notified you about the problems associated with using aftermarket filters, and the one you used is specifically listed, they have to prove the filter actually did cause it. They can't just start refusing to honor warranty claims just because they saw an aftermarket filter on there. That is bull.

Dodge had a similar thing going on with the Ram's running the Cummins diesel engines. They had a list of aftermarket filters known to fail and lead to engine damage. That TSB was not hidden however and owners were notified, dealers had the info posted, etc... GM has to let people know if they are going to start refusing to honor warranty for using certain filters. They can't just sit back and wait to spring it on people if there is a known problem. Handing that TSB to you AFTER the problem happened does not absolve GM of their responsibility.

Bottom line is they have to show you why that filter caused the problem. It has to be a real mechanical reason/failure and not just "because you used a non GM filter". Even if the filter is on the list of problem filters they still have to show it actually did fail and lead to the problem. Even if it is on the list if the filter was working properly they can't refuse to cover the repair. Only out for GM is if Champ says use a filter for this application that does not work properly with it even when the filter is fine. That however would then make Champ responsible.

Unfortunately, you may have quite a fight ahead of you but you should eventually win. Either from GM or Champ. If the filter did not fail and was doing it's job GM has no option but to honor the warranty even if it is on a list of filters not to use( unless they can show you were notified not to use them ). If the filter actually did fail and cause the issue then Champ is on the hook, again, as long as you did a reasonable OCI and used the filter on the correct vehicle.

Best of luck. Keep us updated.

IMPORTANT - Make sure that the dealer or you holds onto that Champ filter. Don't let it walk away or disappear!!!!!!! It is going to be crucial evidence you will need to get this covered by GM or Champ.
 
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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

And a note to the GM bashers who inevitably appear in these threads: This is most definitely not a GM problem, it's a stealership issue!


Perhaps in this case, it is a dealership issue. But GM is not innocent when it comes to shoddy warranty work. Remember when GM wouldn't fix the faulty Impala rear spindle rods because they claimed that the cars were built before the bankruptcy and should be exempt? Yet they somehow had no problem doing warranty work on police cars of the same era so they could continue to get police car contracts.
The Saturn warranty refusal is especially weak since the Champ filters were built in the same factory as a lot of their AC filters. The dealer refused the warranty work, but they were just carrying out the orders of GM.
 
I can tell you that they could warranty your engine if they wanted to. I have seen cars that didn't even have any warranty left get warranty work. I think you may have better luck just going to a different dealer.
 
GM used to have a program in place called "Dealer Empowerment". In a nutshell, it meant the dealers were "empowered" to cover repairs out of warranty for an additional 2 years and 24,000 miles, or up to 5 years and 60,000 miles from the vehicle's in-service date. GM itself allowed their dealers a certain dollar figure each month on their warranty repair claim amounts for what was presented to the public as "Goodwill" repairs past the warranty period. This was back in the early to middle 2000's, and I don't know if the policy is still in place. It may not be, because of the economy, GM's bankruptcy and gov't bailouts, lower sales, etc. Anyway, the empowerment period allowed dealers to "take care of" its "best customers", those are the ones who bought the car new at the dealer, and had all their maintenance done religiously done on schedule at the dealer, such as customer-pay oil changes, tire rotations and brake jobs. If the customer did not have a verifiable service history (and oftentimes a verifiable new vehicle purchase history) at the dealer, the dealer was a lot less likely to assist with out of warranty repairs.

Dealers had other tricks up their sleeve too, like a GMWA (GM Warranty Assistance) warranty coverage. That is where they submit the customer's case to GM itself and if there is a severe enough engine/drivetrain problem or blatant enough concern with the build of the vehicle, GM itself would pay for warranty repairs. Other times the dealer may absorb a percentage of the cost of an out of warranty repair, or offer a free maintenance plan or even a free extended service contract, and the best they could do was buy the vehicle back from the customer if there were enough warranty repairs to make it look like a good lemon law candidate. It costs GM a lot less to buy the vehicle back than it does to go to arbitration and lose, or lose out on a lemon law claim.

I have no idea if any of these policies are still in place at GM. I used to work for a GM contractor that handled GM customer service issues. My last job there was in the Vehicle Repurchase Department. The contractor lost its contract with GM in 2005 and about 1,500 people lost their jobs. I am straying from the topic here but the bottom line is, GM and/or the dealer probably has some kind of assistance they can offer, and they can probably just fix the engine for the OP. Whether they actually will assist the OP is a very different story.

OP still has a very valid point, he had the vehicle maintained well enough to be well within compliance of the warranty guidelines. GM and the dealer and/or Champ Labs will have to prove the actual cause of the engine failure. That will take a lot of time and effort. OP probably will not get his answer overnight, and I hope the dealer and/or GM and/or Champ Labs don't screw him over.
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Here's a thread related to the TSB:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2016594&page=1

Note that the TSB includes this language:

Quote:
Do not perform warranty repairs when the damage was caused by an aftermarket oil filter


I wonder if they have positively determined that the aftermarket filter element caused the damage.


That has been superceded by 10-06-01-003A

I can't copy and paste the info from Mitchell, but it has pictures of what to look for. First inspect the filter to see if it has come apart, then tear down the motor to find the missing parts of the filter. It has a picture of an orange silicone anti-drain back valve in between a main bearing and the oil hole in the block, also has a picture of filter media in a oil passage in the head.
 
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