Is BMW LL-04 backward compatible to LL-01 & LL-98

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Originally Posted By: Hessam
Are there any people who are running RT6 or Delo Synthetic 5W-40 in older Bimmers?


Yeah, I did for a while but now I am running M1 0W-40 as I got a bunch at Farm & Fleet on sale/rebate that made it cheaper than T6. I did get a UOA on it, but it was after a winter of very short tripping (approx. 1 mile). The oil was trashed but that was expected. So I guess it was fine.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Hessam
Are there any people who are running RT6 or Delo Synthetic 5W-40 in older Bimmers?


Yeah, I did for a while but now I am running M1 0W-40 as I got a bunch at Farm & Fleet on sale/rebate that made it cheaper than T6. I did get a UOA on it, but it was after a winter of very short tripping (approx. 1 mile). The oil was trashed but that was expected. So I guess it was fine.


the RT6 was trashed in your 530i? after how many miles was that?
have you done UOA on the M1 to compare?
 
Originally Posted By: Hessam
the RT6 was trashed in your 530i? after how many miles was that?

Looks like after 1,500 miles:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...301#Post2574301

It was down to a 30-grade at that point, so maybe that's what he means by "trashed"? I suspect that his fuel dilution was higher than 1% at some point during this OCI due to short tripping and cold weather, so that's probably what caused it to thin out.
 
Wow considering how harsh that engine treats RT6 after only 1500 hard miles, I'm starting to see why a lot of bimmer owners believe that the only reason why BMW recomends 5W-30 as their main approved oil in the US is in order to meet the higher US CAFE standards.

Doesn't BMW manual recomend 5W-40 and 15W-40 grade oils, for the same e39 and e46 engines in Europe, whereas same einges in the US with the pretty much the same ambient temps get 5W-30 recomendations.

The HDEO route for these engines might be the smart choice in the long run, if you are not too anal about putting only BMW LL-01 approved oils in your engine.

Specially considering the high shearing levels, and how fast it drove down TBN and visc in less than 2000 miles (granted in extreme env/temps).
 
BMWs are highway machines. They tend not to like short trips. Bad results are to be expected from any oil, let alone a non-spec one.

Regarding Euro vs. US oil specs: differences in environmental regulations, driving styles, and/or supply lines could explain the different oil specs -- if that's even true. I'm pretty sure the only spec for almost all BMWs is LL-01, LL-01FE, or LL-04, regardless of grade.

Regarding HDEOs: BMW LongLife specs are pretty darn tough. A lot of the oils that meet them also meet Mercedes 229.x specs, which may be even tougher. What is there to gain from something that is labeled as an HDEO?
 
Yeah, Quattro Pete got it right. But listen, that was in the depths of winter (here in Wisconsin) and it was literally about a mile and half it was driven, twice a day. Rarely did it see enough driving to warm up the oil.

And the dipstick movement I thought I saw was a red herring. That car is quite sensitive to orientation when checking the oil. Now that I am being consistent in my checking it is fine.

But nevertheless, the oil was pretty burned out after the winter. I guess I'm kind of figuring that most any oil would be after that treatment.

And no I haven't yet checked the M1 0W-40. I will later once it gets a few miles on it.
 
Originally Posted By: Hessam
Doesn't BMW manual recomend 5W-40 and 15W-40 grade oils, for the same e39 and e46 engines in Europe,

It doesn't. As doodfood mentioned, it recommends LL-01 (or similar) spec, and a number of different SAE grades can meet this spec, including Xw-30 as well as Xw-40. It's not really as much about SAE grade as it is about HTHS, which needs to be at least 3.5 cP. Depending on how an oil is formulated, an Xw-30 grade can have HTHS of 3.5+ cP and therefore meet the spec. German Castrol 0w-30 is a good example of this.

FYI, if you go to Castrol's UK page, their primary recommendation for your engine would be Edge 0w-30, which I am fairly sure is similar to German Castrol 0w-30.

Quote:
I'm starting to see why a lot of bimmer owners believe that the only reason why BMW recomends 5W-30 as their main approved oil in the US is in order to meet the higher US CAFE standards.

Some confusion here, again. The 5w-30 oil that BMW recommends is not just any plain old 5w-30. The one BMW recommends has HTHS of at least 3.5 cP and therefore is not considered energy conserving, and hence has little to do with US CAFE standards.
 
Ok..noted on the BMW LL-01 oil being a heavier/thicker 5W-30 (i.e. GC), than you average run of the mill 0W/5W-30 synthetics.
But wouldn't a thick 5W-30 still in theory give you better gas mileage than a 5W-40, 10W-40, or 15W-40 oil.

The reference I was using for BMW recommending heavier motor oils in the Europe for the same engines than in the US is here:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5223105&postcount=1

The post looks legit to me, I don't think they went through all the trouble to doctor the BMW manual to help them prove a point about motor oil.
 
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Quote:
But wouldn't a thick 5W-30 still in theory give you better gas mileage than a 5W-40, 10W-40, or 15W-40 oil.

Very slightly, maybe. But I have yet to find a single person who would claim that GC 0w-30 gives him better MPG than M1 0w-40.

And if BWM really wanted to influence their CAFE numbers, they'd be recommending 0w-20 oils.


Quote:

The reference I was using for BMW recommending heavier motor oils in the Europe for the same engines than in the US is here:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5223105&postcount=1


The post looks legit to me, I don't think they went through all the trouble to doctor the BMW manual to help them prove a point about motor oil.


While the post looks legit, I think the author is reading too much into this and trying to selectively pick facts to suit his theory. For example, he writes:

Quote:
if you have your North American manual, notice on the relevant page inside it (designed just like the one below), it specifies only 5w-30.

The owner's manual of my 2002 530i states:
Quote:
Viscosity ratings
Viscosity is the oilflow rating as estab-
lished in SAE classes.
The selection of the correct SAE class
depends on the climatic conditions in
the area where you typically drive your
BMW.
Approved oils are in SAE classes
5W-40 and 5W-30.


Also take note of the "Special Oils" on the right side of the chart that he posted. I believe we discussed these here on BITOG in the past, and conclusion was that these are oils meeting the BMW LL-98/LL-01/LL-04 spec. They can be of pretty much any grade and still be used across all ambient temps.

It's true that BMW (and most other mfgs) used to recommend thicker oils in the past (15w-40 and/or 10w-40), but I think that is mainly due to the fact that those were the most common grades back then. With the invention of affordable shear stable synthetics, it is now possible to achieve the same level of performance with even Xw-30 grades, while providing superior cold startup protection and allowing for extended drains. Whereas that 15w-40 mineral oil would not be able to withstand a long drain OCI.
 
So in Europe the recomended OCI's for the same model year BMW's are shorter than in the US?

agreed that in the past in general german auto makers designed their engines to run on thicker 40 and 50 weight oils. But I believe that was a little more recent from 2000 model year.

I would be interested to see if anyone has a manual for 2000 model year 528 or 540i, what the US manual recomendation shows for oil viscosity. does it even make mention of any 15w-40 or 10w-40 oils?
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Quote:


And if BWM really wanted to influence their CAFE numbers, they'd be recommending 0w-20 oils.



Maybe Ow-20 is currently a bridge too far for BMW. Toyota and most japaense auto makers went from 10W-30 and 5W-30 to 0W-20 and 5W-20, so it wasn't that huge a move down in visc. But for BMW to go from their old recommended 40 and 50 weight oils down to XW-20 weight oils might be too far a stretch at this point. But who knows maybe in a few years when the US CAFE standards get even stricter, then BMW will also go another knotch down from their current US XW-30 weight oils down to Xw-20 weight oils.
 
Originally Posted By: Hessam
So in Europe the recomended OCI's for the same model year BMW's are shorter than in the US?

Good question. I believe Europe had a choice of either a shorter OCI on mineral oil (such as 15w-40 or 10w-40) or a longer OLM-based OCI on synthetic oil (LL-98/LL-01). In the US, ever since service maintenance become "free", BMW dealers wanted to do as little of it as possible, so they mandated the use of synthetic/LL oils and told people not to come back sooner than every 15K miles (or so).


Quote:

I would be interested to see if anyone has a manual for 2000 model year 528 or 540i, what the US manual recomendation shows for oil viscosity. does it even make mention of any 15w-40 or 10w-40 oils?

You can download all the manuals here:
http://www.bmwsections.com/docs/5series/
 
Originally Posted By: Hessam
But for BMW to go from their old recommended 40 and 50 weight oils down to XW-20 weight oils might be too far a stretch at this point.

Since the late 90s, BMW has had the LL specs which were loosely based on ACEA A3 spec, which means a basic requirement for HTHS viscosity to be at least 3.5 cP. This requirement hasn't changed in some 15 years. Practically every Xw-40 or Xw-50 oil out there has HTHS of at least this much, so that's why it was easy for BMW to just recommend these grades initially and call it a day. Later it became possible to manufacture some 5w-30 or 0w-30 oils that would still have sufficient HTHS, so BMW allowed those too, but not just any 5w-30 or 0w-30. Now, if in a few years someone comes up with an Xw-20 oil that has HTHS of at least 3.5 cP, then possibly such oil would be able to pass the LL spec as well. However, such oil will never be considered energy conserving and hence will have little relevance to CAFE. Fuel economy is directly related to HTHS. I think all energy conserving oils have HTHS of below 3 cP.

I guess what I'm getting at is that while it was safe for BMW to just make a blanket statement that any Xw-40/50 oil was OK, they could not provide the same blanket statement with Xw-30 oils as many of them don't have high enough HTHS. That's why BMW started including these fancy oil charts that showed "special oils" and such, later standardizing it with the LL specs.

If you're trying to figure out if your M54 engine would run fine on 15w-40 oil, the answer is probably yes, just as long as you don't push the OCI and you don't live in a cold place. Alas, you're still dealing with an inferior mineral product. Why bother when there are so many great synthetic oils out there?
 
Yeah I wouldn't really run a 15W-40 in the BMW. but in general, I am more comfortable taking a small hit on the gas mileage and running at least one level heavier weight oil in all my cars including the BMW, to gain added engine protection. so I don't think I will be running any Xw-30 oils, unless it's a real heavy 30 weight, like GC or even M1 HM 5w-30, I know that that oil is not BMW LL-01 approved, but the specs look awsome, and I have read some outstanding UOA's on this oil, in various applications. And since the car is over 100K, warranty issues are not really an concern, and the stout add pack can't hurt. I won't be running any extended OCI's, and 7-8K is prob the max number of miles I'd put on, in a 6 month period. So any good synthetic with a high HTHS (I believe M1 HM 5w30 is like 3.6 or 3.7, pretty much same ballpark as GC and M1 0w40), and stout add pack should do well in that M54 engine I'm assuming. I hope I'm not too far off base with this assumption.

Right now I'm running M1 Ow-40, for the fall oil change I got some GC lined up, that i picked up on sale at AZ for about $5.50 per quart once I returned the oil filters from the oil change special. And when the m1 sale comes around again at either walmart or costco or AA, I'm probably going to go with the M1 HM 5W-30 in that order, unless by some stroke of luck my walmart starts carrying PU 5W-40 like some walmarts have started stocking recently. in which case all bets are off, and the GC is going in my LX450, and straight to the PU for the M54. Although the last time I ran (green) GC in my LX450, the small oil leeks (specially the o-ring and valve cover) were really acting up, to the point that i ended up having to replace the valve cover gasket-- o-ring still has small leak, which i can live with.... I don't know about you guys, but I haven't had a single toyota engine ever, that didn't develop a small o-ring leak, and I have had at least 4 different yota engines. Although the LX450 engine is not technically a toyota engine. I believe that engine is the same bored out buick block, which toyota has been using in their various landcruiser models since the mid 60's, when the first jeep style landcruiser models debuted.
 
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Originally Posted By: Hessam
(I believe M1 HM 5w30 is like 3.6 or 3.7, pretty much same ballpark as GC and M1 0w40),

FYI, M1 HM 5w-30 has HTHS of 3.3. GC - 3.5. M1 0w-40 - 3.8.

But yeah, I would expect you'd be fine with M1 HM if you were to use it.

Quote:
unless by some stroke of luck my walmart starts carrying PU 5W-40 like some walmarts have started stocking now.

Has this actually been confirmed?
 
For people who live in Europe, the LL04 is better than the LL01 for DI engines ?
Can I use LL01 on my 535i N55 ?
Because I can get Fuchs SuperSyn LongLife 0w40 LL01 (I like this brand) instead the M1 ESP 0w40 LL04
 
Originally Posted By: Kaiser
For people who live in Europe, the LL04 is better than the LL01 for DI engines ?
Can I use LL01 on my 535i N55 ?
Because I can get Fuchs SuperSyn LongLife 0w40 LL01 (I like this brand) instead the M1 ESP 0w40 LL04

Of course you can use it.
 
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