Stuff that is NOT required in a modern car

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If you have a modern MPFI vehicle; do the routine fluid changes in your car with the fluid, filters, and techniques specified in the owner's manual; and use a high quality gasoline; I argue that you never need the following things done to your car:

Coolant flush*
Coolant additives
ATF flush*
ATF additives
Engine oil flush*
Engine oil additives
Magnetic drain plug upgrade
Fuel Injector Additive
Intake manifold cleaning
Oxygen sensor replacement

*chemical or physical

Please send half of all monies you would have invested into these products to my mailing address and we'll call it even.
 
LOL good call one that one.
wink.gif
 
I still think most engines eventually need oil flushes. No matter what brand you use, or interval, eventually it builds up in there.
 
Hmmm? Do you plan on trading in this vehicle when the litter bags are full, or keeping it for many miles?

The corrosion inhibitors in coolant get depleted. The system needs to be flushed and new coolant added. OK, you can test the pH of the coolant to determine when. Or test and add a coolant additive (I'd rather flush an replace.)

ATF needs to be flushed and renewed for best transmission life. You're a Honda guy...I'm getting ready to do the required 30,000 mile transmission drain on an Accord...do you dispute the owner's manual? (I'll do a complete flush and install an in-line mag-filter, or do three drains and install the filter.)

Any engine with over 100,000 miles will run better after an Auto-Rx flush...well, the engines I've treated have run better, quieter, and been visibly cleaner.

A neo-mag drain plug is only for those who plan on keeping the vehicle for many, many miles. It does do the job--would my engines have been better off with the fine iron and steel particles that the magnet catches circulating in the oil instead?

Are you suggesting that a failed O2 sensor not be replaced? Will the engine run correctly? Will the vehicle pass the yearly emissions testing?

I have two vehicles that I plan on keeping until the wheels fall off. One has a turbocharger, and I'm doing everything prudent to stretch the life of those engines. I have seen the cost of replacing an aluminum head due to galvanic corrosion from failure to change the coolant. I know that most automatic transmissions have about half the life of a well maintained engine, probably because they're not adequately cooled nor filtered (see Racor LFS 22825). I'm trying to stretch all these factors.


Ken

[ February 02, 2003, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by Ken2:
Hmmm? Do you plan on trading in this vehicle when the litter bags are full, or keeping it for many miles?

The corrosion inhibitors in coolant get depleted. The system needs to be flushed and new coolant added. OK, you can test the pH of the coolant to determin when.

ATF needs to be flushed and renewed for best transmission life.

A neo-mag drain plug is only for those who plan on keeping the vehicle for many, many miles. It does do the job.

Are you suggesting that a failed O2 sensor not be replaced? Will the engine run correctly? Will the vehicle pass the yearly emissions testing?


Ken


Hi Ken,

Thanks for producing some good points.

I've been a multiple car owner for over 20 years now. I keep my cars for many miles and have never "flushed" any systems, nor replaced an O2 sensor.

Please understand that I am drawing a line between "change" (gravity drain and replace) and "flush" (a special effort to remove beyond gravity draining).

I'm not suggesting an O2 sensor can't fail. This can happen mechanically or chemically (contamination). However, if you don't do any no-no's that kill O2 sensors, they can last well over a hundred thousand miles. And if they do fail, the car can run reasonably close to nominal until you can get it fixed. (Obey check engine light). A well maintained car can have O2 sensors that last as long as any other sensor.

I am open to both conjecture and evidence to the contrary, however I would prefer evidence that my original statement is false with the given assumptions of maintenance. That is, that there is risk of damage or significant deterioration of the vehicle's systems without these items being "overly" serviced.

I would like to add that some of these vigorous services in themselves can have negative effects that are more severe than doing the basic service required by the owner's manual.

[ February 02, 2003, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]
 
I suppose GM just puts in magnetic drain plugs from the factory for the hell of it.
rolleyes.gif
In a perfect world sure you don't need many of those things. But most people don't have perfectly made cars that are maintained perfectly. my 2 cents
 
I said "magnetic plug upgrade" because some manufacuturers prefer to put the magnet in the drain pan or casing. If you do not have a magnet in the drain plug of a tranny or diff, there is more than likely a permanent magnet somewhere inside.

I agree with your second point... if you don't know if a used car you bought was well-maintained, these special services are probably justified.

quote:

Originally posted by RobZ71LM7:
I suppose GM just puts in magnetic drain plugs from the factory for the hell of it.
rolleyes.gif
In a perfect world sure you don't need many of those things. But most people don't have perfectly made cars that are maintained perfectly. my 2 cents


 
s2000, I appreciate your think-twice attitude but it's slightly idealized. Each item must be considered by brand, model, and setting, and therefore can't apply to "all modern MPFI vehicles." The archives (good reading, BTW) have data to rebut every item in different cases. Hit one or two with tighter focus and I promise to participate. As is, there's way too much writing and searching for any single reply.
smile.gif


David
 
You're right. I've become much too complacent owning mostly Honda products. (8 total now). I've given this forum a good "search" exercise ever since I found it.

As is being said in another thread, both cars and the fluids have become incredibly good over the past decade or so. The reason I posted is that I am of the opinion that lots of unnecessary habits are being held over from "the good old days".

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by OneQuartLow:

s2000, I appreciate your think-twice attitude but it's slightly idealized. Each item must be considered by brand, model, and setting, and therefore can't apply to "all modern MPFI vehicles." The archives (good reading, BTW) have data to rebut every item in different cases. Hit one or two with tighter focus and I promise to participate. As is, there's way too much writing and searching for any single reply.
smile.gif


David




[ February 03, 2003, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]
 
ahhh my 92 seville has 4.9 with alum block.. the manual states without the coolant supplement pellets damage can occur. i read alot that 90 percent of engine failures are from neglected cooling systems... cadillacs from 82 and up (even brand new ones with northstars) should use the GM pellets... the porous block benefits from it.

ever heard of the cadillac HT-4100 4.1 DFI v8? if you have, you know its notorious for warped heads, intake leaks, and head gasket blowings... because people didnt change the coolant and add the pellets..
 
Coolant flush*
Coolant additives
ATF flush*
ATF additives
Engine oil flush*
Engine oil additives
Magnetic drain plug upgrade
Fuel Injector Additive
Intake manifold cleaning
Oxygen sensor replacement


Your statement is hideously presumptive and oblivious to real world driving conditions.

All your questions wind down to mileage, use of vehicle, maintanence, durabilty, etc...so many factors I could wrote many PhD doctoral dissertations on. Your statement assumes an idela world...the driving world is everything but.

To make a long story short, MPFI is not immune to sludge a waste product of aged oil and poor combustion. Each and every assertion you made
is clearly challengeable. I hope no one takes that advice to a T.
 
quote:

Originally posted by S2000driver:
Oxygen sensor replacement

BMW requires this at 100,000 miles. Some older Chrysler and Nissan products tripped a Check Engine Lamp at 60-80,000 miles indicating that replacement was required. Vehicles which do that will typically fail emissions due to the CEL being lit. Having never owned one, I'm not sure if BMW does it this way!
 
"hideously presumptive" YES.
"oblivious" NO.

Service your car properly and on schedule. Take it in for service right away when something's wrong.

Use the car the way it was intended. Use it hard if you like. The real world is the only one I know.

If your new car fails to give you proper service under these conditions, maybe seek out another make.

I'm going to have to do some more research into oxygen sensor failure mode. But many of my friends have to replace MAF, MAP, and TPS sensors way before I would be concerned about my O2 sensor going out of whack.

I'm still checking back for evidence, friends.

[ February 04, 2003, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]
 
A) Coolant flush*

Necessary unless you do not give a care about your car when a new lease is due every 3 or so years. Why has thier been a proliferation of BG and other types of Coolant flshing machines which have been approved by the auto makers? Prior to the Flush an additive is added to the system to help loosed the crud and lessen contamination to the new coolant. Whether it be DEXCOOL or the Standard green stuff it will scale and deposits will form even if you adhere strictly to the manual for service intervals. The flush is clearly superior as it will get most of the junky fluid out versus a gallon here and there during the old school method.

I fully disagree with your assertion.

Coolant additives

The quality and benefical traits of coolant additives such as Redline's "Water-Wetter" and Royal Purples "Purple Ice" speak for themselves. Please read the SAE reports of water wetter.

ATF flush*

An ATF Flushing Machine benefit needs not a futher explanation as I already wrote about this. Hmmm it is common sense...remove 4qts of fluid during standard pan-service or all 12-16qts? Why contaminate new fluid with fluid that is concievably as old as the day it left the factory? Nieve and foolish! Flush it with a machine to get most out....solvents are not necessary.

Again I disagree with your assertion.

ATF additives

additives like Lucas trans additive, Auto-RX trans medic also have thier place when necessary. It just striclty depends on application and should not be used for the sake of doing so. If it will prolong an expensive rebuild or or new remanafactured unit why not?

I disagree with your assertion again.

Engine oil flush*

Anyone with an engine over 100k miles can benefit. All the users here who have enoyed amazing results with such products as Neura, Auto-Rx, Lube Control and what not will clearly disagree with you.

Engine oil additives

Depends on the problem...and this point is a grey area. No clear answer.

Magnetic drain plug upgrade

Why not? i fit will get damaging iron particles out of the oil system that can tear through your filter media and scour bearing surfaces why not? Using magnets in the oil system (such as filter-mag) have been very effective. I wrote a post on this citing a GM High Performance maazine article.

I disagree once again.

Fuel Injector Additive

The succesful users of Techron, Redline and other reputable fuel injector flush solvents will disagree with you. Some fuels do not clean and some do. You are presuming that all fules will clean sufficiently. The GM paper cited by reline on thier website clearly idnicates how fast fuel injectors foul.

I disagree with you.

Intake manifold cleaning
Oxygen sensor replacement


O2 sensor when the SES light comes on replace it. Intake manifold i do not see any reason unless it comes off and then why not clean to get any oil of it.
 
A) Coolant flush*

Necessary unless you do not give a care about your car when a new lease is due every 3 or so years. Why has thier been a proliferation of BG and other types of Coolant flshing machines which have been approved by the auto makers? Prior to the Flush an additive is added to the system to help loosed the crud and lessen contamination to the new coolant. Whether it be DEXCOOL or the Standard green stuff it will scale and deposits will form even if you adhere strictly to the manual for service intervals. The flush is clearly superior as it will get most of the junky fluid out versus a gallon here and there during the old school method.

I fully disagree with your assertion.

Coolant additives

The quality and benefical traits of coolant additives such as Redline's "Water-Wetter" and Royal Purples "Purple Ice" speak for themselves. Please read the SAE reports of water wetter.

ATF flush*

An ATF Flushing Machine benefit needs not a futher explanation as I already wrote about this. Hmmm it is common sense...remove 4qts of fluid during standard pan-service or all 12-16qts? Why contaminate new fluid with fluid that is concievably as old as the day it left the factory? Nieve and foolish! Flush it with a machine to get most out....solvents are not necessary.

Again I disagree with your assertion.

ATF additives

additives like Lucas trans additive, Auto-RX trans medic also have thier place when necessary. It just striclty depends on application and should not be used for the sake of doing so. If it will prolong an expensive rebuild or or new remanafactured unit why not?

I disagree with your assertion again.

Engine oil flush*

Anyone with an engine over 100k miles can benefit. All the users here who have enoyed amazing results with such products as Neura, Auto-Rx, Lube Control and what not will clearly disagree with you.

Engine oil additives

Depends on the problem...and this point is a grey area. No clear answer.

Magnetic drain plug upgrade

Why not? i fit will get damaging iron particles out of the oil system that can tear through your filter media and scour bearing surfaces why not? Using magnets in the oil system (such as filter-mag) have been very effective. I wrote a post on this citing a GM High Performance maazine article.

I disagree once again.

Fuel Injector Additive

The succesful users of Techron, Redline and other reputable fuel injector flush solvents will disagree with you. Some fuels do not clean and some do. You are presuming that all fules will clean sufficiently. The GM paper cited by reline on thier website clearly idnicates how fast fuel injectors foul.

I disagree with you.

Intake manifold cleaning
Oxygen sensor replacement


O2 sensor when the SES light comes on replace it. Intake manifold i do not see any reason unless it comes off and then why not clean to get any oil of it.
 
Now THAT'S the kind of post I was hoping for, outrun!
smile.gif


As for coolant, just an hour ago I changed the coolant in your CR-V at a little over 50,000 original miles. It was pure green, and clear like the new stuff! I decided to filter it and use it as adder coolant for my beater, since it has a very small leak in the water pump (143,000 miles). So I got a cone-shaped coffee filter and put it in a funnel. I filtered through everything. There wasn't any scale, debris, or wear material whatsoever. NONE.

Not sure what water-wetter would do for me. Why would I need this?

ATF- On a vehicle not requiring an acutal flush by the maintenance schedule, when you drain at proper intervals, you replace enough fluid to maintain the proper fluid properties and fine debris removal (that which isn't caught by the magnet)

ATF additives- seems like you don't disagree. I'm talking about modern cars here, not cars requiring rebuilt trannys.

Fuel injector cleaner: Yes, I had a Saturn once and the fuel injector needed cleaning every couple months. Drove me crazy... constantly covered under warranty. The car would die and the mechanics refused to replace the injector. Just goes to show you that some manufacturers fail to put quality parts in their vehicles, therefore causing them to be something less than "modern". Injectors that self-clean with standard quality gasoline are modern.

I concede the O2 thing until I find more information.

[ February 04, 2003, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]
 
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