Influence of Ethanol (E85) on Oil?

[Pinky]

Dear all,

I recently converted my car to be capable of using pure E85 gasoline. For quite some time I am trying to collect information about the impacts of E85 on the drivetrain and fuel supply system, respectively. One major issue might be the lubricant detoriation, i.e. fuel entry into the engine oil, especially at cold starts and cold environmental conditions.

I could imagine that up until now only few sources are available for this topic, one of which is an article I found recently at ATZ online (unfortunately being written) in German: Auswirkung von Ethanol E85 auf Schmierstoffalterung und Verschleiß im Ottomotor (Influence of Ethanol E85 on Lubricant Detoriation and Engine Wear)

Has this topic already been addressed in this forum before? Is there interest and/or has anyone else further information sources available?

I am currently paging through the various SAE papers available on Ethanol fuels (which unfortunately do not seem to directly address this issue) etc. Maybe I can come up with further information as well?!

Philipp

P.S.: I hope this subforum is the correct one for this question?!

 

[Food Scientist]

Look for info related to racing since a lot of racers tear apart engines after races that use methanol/ethanol.

 

[spock1]

What motivated you to convert to E(85)?What was the thought process?
The consensus seems to be that the only positive thing about E(10) is its fuel deicing properties in the winter.
Now,if E(10) is bad ,E(85) must be much worst....makes sense?
I know that small engine manufacturers warn their customers against using E(85)because of its corrosive effect.

 

[Pinky]

In principle, I see the following advantages using E85:
- Octane Number: With an octane number of 104.4 for E85 gasoline, one might gain additional margins with respect to knocking at high environmental temperatures in conjunction with e.g. an ECU optimization?! At least, I experienced knocking problems with standard 95 octane fuel starting at 21 degree Celcius ambient temperature with my BMW.
- Pricing: Here in Germany the price for standard high quality fuel with 98 octane is currently above 1.60 euros per liter (approx. 8 dollars per gallon) while E85 is sold for ~1.07 euros per liter. Even with the typical higher fuel consumption of about 30% with E85, the equivalent pricing is about 1.40 euros per liter!
- Cleaning Effect: Ethanol might help to keep e.g. the input valves clean etc.

Of course there are disadvantages:
- Cold Start Issues: Below 0 degree Celcius ambient temperature the engine will need at least two or more starts to keep running. This might easily be circumvented with the application of aerosol start aid though ...
- Corrosion: I think corrosion will only be a problem if there is a specific water entry to the E85 gasoline, which should not be a problem from a qualitative point of view here in Germany (referring to the corresponding standard DIN 51625 for E85).

As I had used an E85 mixture (60:40 E85:Standard) for 1.5 years already with basically no negative effects (not even with sealings), I am quite sure that 100% E85 won't do any additional harm to the system?!

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: spock1
Now,if E(10) is bad ,E(85) must be much worst....makes sense?

Why is that an automatic assumption and do you have references to that effect? I have ran E85 for about 17,000 miles with no issues and the engine develops more HP on E85 than it does on E10 (all grades). My UOAs have shown zero differences, so I am not sure that E85 is "automatically worse" than E10.

In an engine where E85 would sit for long periods of time unused--such as a small engine, I can see where corrosion may be an issue particularly in a humid environment OR if the engine is not properly configured to use E85.

I have since stopped using E85, but not due to any issue, only due to the fact that it is only $0.25 a gallon less than E10 and with the decrease in MPG, it is not economically viable. However, if it were, I would continue to run it based on the power increase alone.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: Pinky

In principle, I see the following advantages using E85:
- Octane Number: With an octane number of 104.4 for E85 gasoline, one might gain additional margins with respect to knocking at high environmental temperatures in conjunction with e.g. an ECU optimization?! At least, I experienced knocking problems with standard 95 octane fuel starting at 21 degree Celcius ambient temperature with my BMW.
- Pricing: Here in Germany the price for standard high quality fuel with 98 octane is currently above 1.60 euros per liter (approx. 8 dollars per gallon) while E85 is sold for ~1.07 euros per liter. Even with the typical higher fuel consumption of about 30% with E85, the equivalent pricing is about 1.40 euros per liter!
- Cleaning Effect: Ethanol might help to keep e.g. the input valves clean etc.

Of course there are disadvantages:
- Cold Start Issues: Below 0 degree Celcius ambient temperature the engine will need at least two or more starts to keep running. This might easily be circumvented with the application of aerosol start aid though ...
- Corrosion: I think corrosion will only be a problem if there is a specific water entry to the E85 gasoline, which should not be a problem from a qualitative point of view here in Germany (referring to the corresponding standard DIN 51625 for E85).

As I had used an E85 mixture (60:40 E85:Standard) for 1.5 years already with basically no negative effects (not even with sealings), I am quite sure that 100% E85 won't do any additional harm to the system?!

I agree with your methodology on this and from my experience, the engine will make more HP on E85 and my UOAs (17,000mi worth) show no difference between E85 and E10 (whether or not it requires many more miles to show a problem, I am not sure, but I tend to think not).

PS...

to BITOG!

 

[Brons2]

The latest US spec oil standards, API SN and ILSAC GF-5, have formulations specifically intended for battling the effects of ethanol on motor oil.

Unfortunately, in your case, the Europeans seem to be going the opposite direction in their low SAPS oils, for example, the VW504/507 oils are known to have poor compatibility with ethanol fuels and cannot be used for long drains as specified in the EU. (OTOH, they are great with diesels).

Not sure if there are any oils with both API SN and ACEA A3 ratings, but that would probably be your best bet for an off the shelf oil for your BMW. (in my opinion). Or maybe a non-rated oil like a Redline where you can actually talk to the blender about your specific needs.

Side question, what specifically did you do to convert your car to ethanol compatiblity. Stainless steel fuel tank, fuel lines and new ethanol compatible seals?

Side question #2: Does BMW sell any E85 flex fuel vehicles in the North American market?

 

[spock1]

Originally Posted By: Pinky

In principle, I see the following advantages using E85:
- Octane Number: With an octane number of 104.4 for E85 gasoline, one might gain additional margins with respect to knocking at high environmental temperatures in conjunction with e.g. an ECU optimization?! At least, I experienced knocking problems with standard 95 octane fuel starting at 21 degree Celcius ambient temperature with my BMW.
- Pricing: Here in Germany the price for standard high quality fuel with 98 octane is currently above 1.60 euros per liter (approx. 8 dollars per gallon) while E85 is sold for ~1.07 euros per liter. Even with the typical higher fuel consumption of about 30% with E85, the equivalent pricing is about 1.40 euros per liter!
- Cleaning Effect: Ethanol might help to keep e.g. the input valves clean etc.

Of course there are disadvantages:
- Cold Start Issues: Below 0 degree Celcius ambient temperature the engine will need at least two or more starts to keep running. This might easily be circumvented with the application of aerosol start aid though ...
- Corrosion: I think corrosion will only be a problem if there is a specific water entry to the E85 gasoline, which should not be a problem from a qualitative point of view here in Germany (referring to the corresponding standard DIN 51625 for E85).

As I had used an E85 mixture (60:40 E85:Standard) for 1.5 years already with basically no negative effects (not even with sealings), I am quite sure that 100% E85 won't do any additional harm to the system?!

If I was paying $8.00 a gallon, I might be tempted to do something drastic like converting to E(85).
Thanks for the reality check.The price of regular fuel E(10) is $1.09/litre in Edmonton.

 

[Pinky]

Hi Brons2,

I am currently using Mobil 1 5W-50 Peak Life?! Do you know what the properties of this oil are with respect to ethanol?

Regarding your first side question: Actually there were only two things I did to convert my car. Firstly, I added a separate adjustable pressure regulator increasing the system pressure from 3.5 bar (50 psi) to 8.0 bar (115 psi), which provides enough headroom for the engine to not run lean. The second thing I did was to replace the stock fuel pump with a high performance one, actually an HFP-340, which I imported from the US.
Currently, I do not expect any problems with the fuel tank or sealings, as my fuel throughput is quite high, which leaves no chance for water to accumulate

Regarding your second side question: I do not have any information on this?!

 

[friendly_jacek]

HDEOs with higher TBN are recommended due to acid issue.

more E85 info here: http://www.flextek.com/links/article.htm

 

[morris]

my idea is you will need to add oil, ie marvel mystery oil. check this out fit, http://www.ampcolubes.com/ they have a upper oiler. i have been using a st400 oiler for 3 years. note: when adjusting oil amount a little is a lot.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Look for info related to racing since a lot of racers tear apart engines after races that use methanol/ethanol.


Are we discussing carbeurated racing vehicles or fuel injected daily drivers?

Sure, for carbeurated racing vehicles you have loads of fuel dilution and that's why one uses a 20W50 or heavier oil for that application.

For fuel injected vehicles, I see no real problems in a vehicle with factory tune.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Can't use LL04or any low ash oils. (Assuming you've converted the bummer)