Torquing Drain Plugs w/Crush Washer

[Trav]

Quote:
Now you are arguing for arguing sake

No I'm not. A lot of people on this board have spent good money on quality torque wrenches and some like to use them.
Now we have this guy preaching the zen of feel and claiming its equal to a torque wrench and just not on oil drain plugs either.
Trying to minimize the value of using of an industry accepted tool in favor of feel is a disservice not an eduction.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: JOD
on a 2003 CR-V and a 2007 XR650R, the specs for the drain plug bolts are for an unlubricated fastener.

I think you're basing your claim on the absence of any official specification for lube for that fastener.

As I said earlier, all but the very first of the dozens of removals/replacements of any given oil drain plug will be done with the threads WET. Since it is IMPOSSIBLE to assure dry threads for ANY but the very first tightening on a new pan that is totally free of oil, the torque figure assumes WET threads.

To put it another way: Specifying dry threads for an oil drain-plug would be completely unrealistic, since nobody would -- or could -- follow it. To specify lubrication would be superfluous, since the threads are already soaked with oil. Therefore...

 

[ltslimjim]

JOD brought out some great points and I also see where Frank is coming from.

Torque is relative to some things lining up relative to what is being torqued down and the given variables.

To me the point about elongated bolts is a huge deal. Like the other thread going on about LIM gasket issues and the various kits offered in some troublesome domestic products of years past. The potential for 'elongated bolts' which may be recommended to be replaced basically for the sake of getting torque 'exact' by the book with a torque wrench on a new bolt.

That said, those with experience relative to feel and using a torque wrench could very well reuse decidedly or deemed 'good' bolts but know the relationship to book specified torque and feel have now changed.

What then?

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Now we have this guy preaching the zen of feel and claiming its equal to a torque wrench and just not on oil drain plugs either.

It is unwise for any home grease-monkey (which term describes most of the denizens of this group, including me) to rely on hand-feel for tightening ANY fastener unless he has LOTS of experience; a torque wrench is essential. I have three of them, and I use them regularly.

Having said that, there are times where it is very difficult, if not impossible, to get a torque wrench on some fasteners. In those cases, you should either not perform the repair yourself, or you should have a pretty good idea what the "correct" torque feels like.

If you
- use the same ratchet and torque wrench all the time,
- pay close attention to how much you need to "pull" when torquing,
- have done it lots of times,
- have paid close attention to what it felt like as a fastener crossed "over the top" and stripped (happens to everybody at some point!),
- and have a keen "feel" for that point where effort ramps up just-so,
then it is possible to come close enough to the specified figure to find that happy medium between stripping and loosening.

Critical, precision fasteners are NOT the ones to be tightening by "feel". Neither are Honda oil drain-plugs.

 

[yonyon]

Originally Posted By: Tegger
Think about it: How on earth are you going to get the pan-threads clean of oil after draining the oil? It's impossible, and NOBODY does it.


I agree that pretty much nobody does it, but it certainly can be done. Offhand I can't think why you'd want to but if you have some sort of jack you can do it. You can drain warm or hot oil with the vehicle tilted so the drain hold is fairly down until drips are few and far between. Tilting the other way should then stop the drips and allow for wiping the threads clean.

Originally Posted By: Tegger
The ONLY time the drain bolt would ever have even a chance of being installed into dry threads would be when building a brand-new or freshly-overhauled engine, or installing a brand-new pan. And that would happen just once.



So there you go then. There should be one spec for assembly and another for service.

 

[yonyon]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: dishdude
What is wrong with the built in rubber o-ring like the American cars use? You don't have to crank down on it and worry about stripping the threads, don't have to replace the washer and never have leaks.


You still need to replace the o-ring on those each time, I had one on my previous Saturn.

If you do not replace the o-ring and crank down on the plug, the metal circle leaves a huge deep groove on the pan. A crush washer works much better as far as preventing this.


This problem is pretty much specific to Saturn S series. Most other oil pans provide a smooth flat surface for the drain plug gasket to seal against without Saturn's pretty groove that rips the seal apart. Other GMs with a very similar drain bolt don't rip the rubber insert apart and as such a single insert can last for many years before replacement is actually necessary.

 

[yonyon]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Anyone here confident enough to torque down a head, connecting rods, or main bearing caps in an engine w/o a torque wrench? Or better yet do a complete rebuild w/o a torque wrench? How about buying a reman engine that you knew was assembled by someone guessing torque? Just wondering?


Head bolts on a Honda 3.2 or one of those Chrysler 2.0L DOHC engines, sure, but not on any other engines or any of your other examples.

 

[SIXSPEED]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
2) I have never felt this "thread crumbling" feeling before when tightening drain plugs with new crush washers, but I presume this is what it feels like when the washer "crushes." So, I guess I have never fully, and properly tightened a plug before? But I have never had any leaks.
I have been using a torque wrench to tighten drain plugs on four different vehicles that I maintain and have never encountered what you describe as a "thread crumbling" feeling. Two of the vehicles are Honda, one with a steel oil pan and another with an Aluminum pan. I always use a new washer.

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
......Critical, precision fasteners are NOT the ones to be tightening by "feel". Neither are Honda oil drain-plugs.

Guess I've never thought of drain plugs, Honda or otherwise, as "critical precision fasteners", and in some four decades of diy oil change never been concerned about using a torque wrench to tighten oil drain bolts. And based the listed requirements for tightening one without a torque wrench, I must been extremely lucky as I've never stripped a drain plug either, that would include the three Hondas I've owned. While I want my wheel lug nuts torqued, when it comes to oil drain bolts, not a concern for me. I suppose if one has absolutely no concept of what a snugged drain bolt feels like, and/or doesn't trust their own mechanical skill, then a torque wrench would/should be an option for them. And while a torque wrench may be "essential" for some things, imo tightening oil drain plugs would not be one of them. But, to each their own.

As for the OP's question, has he been undertightening his drain plugs? Practically speaking, if it hasn't been leaking or dripping, the answer is no. And, I don't always use a new crush washer either.

 

[Merkava_4]

When I worked at Bingham Toyota, we used to torque drain plugs with a Snap-on OEXM140B.

 

[INDYMAC]

I'm probably the least experienced wrencher here, but here is my take on the torque wrench.

-the instructions that came with mine say to never use the torque wrench to tighten bolts, but to only apply it slowly for final torque setting by feeling it click.

-with those instructions in mind, I use a socket or box wrench to tighten the plug/bolt until the washer crushes and then slap the torque wrench on there for final torque setting (usually takes less than a half turn.

This has helped me seemingly get it right. My problem is when I can't get my large torque wrench near where I have to get it (I don't feel confident using extensions and swivels with the torque wrench). Then I have to use hand feel for proper torque.

 

[Vikas]

All I am saying is that do not trust your expensive torque wrench just because it is expensive. It might have been dropped and lost its calibration.

Secondly if you are wrenching even as a recreational person, you need to have a feel to differentiate between some gross torque e.g. spark plug, drain plug, caliper bolt, wheel lug nut.

Realistically speaking (what I have seen at garages) most of the above tasks are done without torque wrench. I insists on (or do it myself later) as far as wheel lugs are concerned but for the other stuff a good mechanic has developed enough instinct to handle these routine tightening.

Now if I see a mechanic using 1/2 18" ratchet and putting his both hands to tighten a spark plug (and grunting), I would change my tune

 

[ltslimjim]

I will say this, I started servicing a friend's 2003 Honda Civic LX.

The quick lube place 'NEVER' replaced the crush washer. Never. It was obviously over-used, but I don't know if one could say 'over torqued' with how the bolt wasn't stripped itself.

It was basically welded onto the bolt head, nearly anyway...after about 30 minutes I finally worked it off of the head and managed to remove it without damaging the bolt's threads. New crush washer and g2g. Re-installed by feel. I don't have a torque wrench, I'm a NOOB mechanic. I admit this freely. I also believe until I can use one successfully for a while, it's a good idea to transition into using torque wrenches for me, but that's just my cautious approach before learning to use a tool I haven't even touched before.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
I'm probably the least experienced wrencher here, but here is my take on the torque wrench.

-the instructions that came with mine say to never use the torque wrench to tighten bolts

I think you'd better re-read those instructions. The standard caution is against using the torque wrench to LOOSEN bolts. And there is a sound mechanical reason why this should be so.

The whole point of a torque wrench is TIGHTENING fasteners.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
the bolt wasn't stripped itself.

It's not the bolt that strips.

 

[Mr Nice]

Our old 1998 Civic had 250K miles with the original washer and zero leaks.

 

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
the bolt wasn't stripped itself.

It's not the bolt that strips.



I suppose I should have specified the head of the bolt.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
the bolt wasn't stripped itself.

It's not the bolt that strips.

I suppose I should have specified the head of the bolt.

On a Honda, it's the PAN that strips.

Steel-pan Hondas don't have a nut welded on the inside. Instead, the receiving threads are cut into a flange that's been punched into a piece of sheet steel. It's a weak design, but a weakness that takes a few years of abuse to show up.

 

[INDYMAC]

Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
I'm probably the least experienced wrencher here, but here is my take on the torque wrench.

-the instructions that came with mine say to never use the torque wrench to tighten bolts

I think you'd better re-read those instructions. The standard caution is against using the torque wrench to LOOSEN bolts. And there is a sound mechanical reason why this should be so.

The whole point of a torque wrench is TIGHTENING fasteners.



That's what I use it for, but just the final slow turn until I reach the bar break torque setting. The KD 3640 is just too large and cumbersome to use it otherwise. Maybe once I reach your skill level, I'll be able to use it from start to finish tightening fasteners.

 

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: Tegger
On a Honda, it's the PAN that strips.

Steel-pan Hondas don't have a nut welded on the inside. Instead, the receiving threads are cut into a flange that's been punched into a piece of sheet steel. It's a weak design, but a weakness that takes a few years of abuse to show up.

Hrm. I suppose I didn't realize this difference. I know the pan's threads on my 92 have an imperfection, but what can you do when you got the car after 230,000 miles.

I've got a thread chaser that's a 14mm by Lisle I'm going to use to try and clean it out during the next oil change in a couple of months. I mention the bolt's threads b/c this pan ate the previous drain plug and the new one I installed also got damaged ever so slightly, already. I've learned since the issue is in the drain pan threads. If all else fails and since I can't afford to drop the pan, I'll buy a Fumoto.

The friend's 2003 Honda Civic LX had the crush washer stuck to the bolt's head, I was surprised it was still working well and 'something' hadn't gone wrong by the time I was able to work/pry that old thing off! Saved the bolt from being useless and the pan's threads apparently!